Show Dad
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I applaud you ingenuity and vision. I think you have found a niche in the marketplace and I wish you success.
New Beef Registry
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TJ
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cbcr said:
Agree with the above and I agree that some registries have issues, especially when it comes to charging $$. My main concern is allowing anything & everything... just not sure how that is going to work from a promotional stand point.
The Lowline breed calls ALL 7/8 cattle "purebred" (which is problem #1, IMHO). However, they treat them as "purebreds" by name ONLY (which is problem #2, IMHO). In other words, a purebred Lowline is considered to be the same percentage that it "actually is" when it comes time to register it's offpspring. So, it's not treated like it's "pure" at all, just in name only. Makes zero sense to me. It's either one or the other, but it should not be both, IMO. For that reason & others, I would not be at all surprised if some percentage registries don't lose cattle to "newer registries", like this one, before it's all said & done. Besides that, competition is always a good thing!!
TJ
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I agree with that. I can see negatives & positives with this deal. With that said, aint nothing or nobody perfect, nor will everybody agree on everything, nor will everything fit every program. This will definately fit a certain niche, and I too think that this person/s should indeed be applauded for ingenuity & vision.SD said:
(clapping)
kidsandkows
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I too think this is a great idea! It will work for what I am trying to accomplish. I happen to beleive I raise some pretty nice mongrels, and I have been told as much by others.ha,ha! Somthing like this would give me some data to go along with a nice crossbred bull to sell to a commercial cattleman to hopefully improve heterosis in thier herd. Anyway I am interested and will continue to research the idea.
TJ
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Still not seeing anything except for a template & blue header text on the "what are composites page". Using IE.TJ said:
The really weird part... I checked the source code & I see the paragraph text on it (Arial - 10 pt). Not sure what is going on, but I am not having this problem with other websites. ??? I tried to highlight the page & that didn't work either. It's in the source, but it didn't download to my web browser for whatever reason. ???
TYD
Well-known member
ok so here is my take you start with a 3\4 angus 1\4 simmi breed that to an angus bull for their first calf and end with a 7\8 angus so now we actually have a book to register them in im all for it
HAB
Well-known member
kidsandkows said:
I never said composites or crossbred cattle weren't any good, or a useful tool in the beef industry. My crossbreds are typically better than my fullbloods...that is what heterosis is all about. Yes, a data base (registry) will let you trace parentage of crossbred cattle, and be able to issue you a paper that states this. As was stated in earlier posts, some associations already do this, for crossbred cattle with very low % of that breed. I too will follow the progress of this registry. I may have some members of the breed association I belong to that I might steer that way.
cbcr said:
Can you tell us who owns this registry, a little about their background, and who is backing it? How is it going to be managed? Before we start spending money, we want to make sure that it has "legs" and staying power.
TJ
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IE 8 Agree about Firefox, I just haven't downloaded it to this computer yet.cbcr said:
I'm not sure why I can't view the pages either. Makes no sense, but I honestly can't see any of the paragraph text on the "what is a composite" & "composite advantage" pages. However, I can read the rest of the site just fine. ???
TJ
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chambero said:
I have a hunch, and I put some clues together, but no way of knowing for sure if I'm correct. I do agree that chambero's questions need to be answered.
jason
Well-known member
I talked to Dennis about this yesterday and gave his permission to post in on the main forum as opposed to a classified. I thought it had some merit. I don't know him personally, but he has done some business with my brother in the past.
comercialfarmer
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Not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I may be reading this wrong, and if so you can let me know. But if your implying that heterosis can be maintained by continued breeding of the same cross with itself- I'll have to disagree. You may eventually create a new breed. But heterosis quickly regresses with each generation after the first F1 cross.
commercialfarmer said:
Look at the following link and you will see that heterosis is maintained.
http://www.gelbvieh.org/images/gw/br0305compositeoption.pdf
Here is another link on the value of retained heterosis with various composite crosses
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/FSA-3057.pdf
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/FSA-3057.pdf
HF CHARS
Well-known member
I have to agree on this one. If we as cattlemen are gonna start selling crossbred bulls, to guys with crossbred cows, we might as well dissolve al breed assosiations. Because at this rate there won't be a purebred in america. We need to get back to the basics people, and get some purebred cattle, or we will loose all heterosis. This "Composite" breed, will make somebody rich for awhile, then will collapse.commercialfarmer said:
Why do you seem to think it will collapse?
How long has the Brangus, Santa Gertrudis and some of these association been around?
Not only that, but how many skeptics were there when some of the Continentals first came to the US and said they would never last?
Look at the Chianina Association, where are the fullbloods? It appears that the Chi cattle today are almost an Angus.
There will always be breeders of Registered Angus, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Maine Anjou, Limousin, etc. All of these registries with the exception of the Angus all are registering animals in their registries now with varying degrees of Angus influence. What will happen to their primary breed if this is happening.
Back when we raised Registered Duroc hogs each breed had a registry, Duroc, Hampshire, York, Spotted Polland China, etc. What has happened to the swine industry? Many of these breeds today are all in one office (they have merged) somewhat as the swine industry has become more commercialized with very large operations. There is no longer room for the "little guy". These swine breeding operations use mostly composite breeding animals in their production practices.
While this more than likely will not occur in the beef industry, and I agree that the base breeds Angus, Shorthorn, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Maine Anjou, Limousin, Charolais, etc as purebreds are important. But it may come to a point that some of these Association may need to merge. Somewhere, I remember seeing some numbers for some of these registries and the number of straightbred animals registerd was far less that their hybrids with Angus influence.
The Angus breed, Certified Angus and other segments of the industry have done an excellent job in their marketing efforts. I am sure that most all of you as have seen that if 2 groups of cattle are selling, and say one group in Hereford and the other is Angus, it will not matter that the Hereford cattle look better or not, just because the other group of cattle are black they will bring more money. Also look at the showring. If you go to a show, I don't care if it is a County Fair, State or National Show, with all of the breeds present, what color are they? BLACK. Why? As the old saying goes if you can't beat'em join'em. Breeders of the Continentals started using Angus bulls primarily to get black color. Does this make their cattle any better? Yes and No. They are black and they have created a composite.
There have also been articles somewhere that DNA testing was done of some of the Certified Angus Beef products and the results were that only 17% of the meat had any Angus DNA. WOW. Consumers, when they buy meat at the grocery store have no idea if what they are buying came from an Angus, Holstein, Jersey, Hereford, Angus/Simmental cross. They are buying on visual appraisal, not what color or what the animal was.
The Composite Beef Cattle Registry has merit. I had some phone calls yesterday and here are a couple of things that I found the most in common with these people. Many of them breed 2 or more breeds of cattle, so they belong to more than one Association. They know that each registry's EPD's are different, they cannot even compare their own animals with each other. They do know that if they are going to sell breeding animals, mainly bulls, that they have to have EPD's, but at what cost and as the old saying goes, what is the return on investment (ROI).
Another common thing is and most of you I am sure know this as well, very few commercial producers really care about those registration papers on that bull he just bought.
For some producers, especially smaller ones, look at what it cost annually to belong to an Association, many are from $25 to well over $100. What does it cost to register each calf? Then beyond this cost, what are the herd assessment cost, this can be from $10 to almost $20 per breeding female per year.
We offer an affordable solution.
How long has the Brangus, Santa Gertrudis and some of these association been around?
Not only that, but how many skeptics were there when some of the Continentals first came to the US and said they would never last?
Look at the Chianina Association, where are the fullbloods? It appears that the Chi cattle today are almost an Angus.
There will always be breeders of Registered Angus, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Maine Anjou, Limousin, etc. All of these registries with the exception of the Angus all are registering animals in their registries now with varying degrees of Angus influence. What will happen to their primary breed if this is happening.
Back when we raised Registered Duroc hogs each breed had a registry, Duroc, Hampshire, York, Spotted Polland China, etc. What has happened to the swine industry? Many of these breeds today are all in one office (they have merged) somewhat as the swine industry has become more commercialized with very large operations. There is no longer room for the "little guy". These swine breeding operations use mostly composite breeding animals in their production practices.
While this more than likely will not occur in the beef industry, and I agree that the base breeds Angus, Shorthorn, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Maine Anjou, Limousin, Charolais, etc as purebreds are important. But it may come to a point that some of these Association may need to merge. Somewhere, I remember seeing some numbers for some of these registries and the number of straightbred animals registerd was far less that their hybrids with Angus influence.
The Angus breed, Certified Angus and other segments of the industry have done an excellent job in their marketing efforts. I am sure that most all of you as have seen that if 2 groups of cattle are selling, and say one group in Hereford and the other is Angus, it will not matter that the Hereford cattle look better or not, just because the other group of cattle are black they will bring more money. Also look at the showring. If you go to a show, I don't care if it is a County Fair, State or National Show, with all of the breeds present, what color are they? BLACK. Why? As the old saying goes if you can't beat'em join'em. Breeders of the Continentals started using Angus bulls primarily to get black color. Does this make their cattle any better? Yes and No. They are black and they have created a composite.
There have also been articles somewhere that DNA testing was done of some of the Certified Angus Beef products and the results were that only 17% of the meat had any Angus DNA. WOW. Consumers, when they buy meat at the grocery store have no idea if what they are buying came from an Angus, Holstein, Jersey, Hereford, Angus/Simmental cross. They are buying on visual appraisal, not what color or what the animal was.
The Composite Beef Cattle Registry has merit. I had some phone calls yesterday and here are a couple of things that I found the most in common with these people. Many of them breed 2 or more breeds of cattle, so they belong to more than one Association. They know that each registry's EPD's are different, they cannot even compare their own animals with each other. They do know that if they are going to sell breeding animals, mainly bulls, that they have to have EPD's, but at what cost and as the old saying goes, what is the return on investment (ROI).
Another common thing is and most of you I am sure know this as well, very few commercial producers really care about those registration papers on that bull he just bought.
For some producers, especially smaller ones, look at what it cost annually to belong to an Association, many are from $25 to well over $100. What does it cost to register each calf? Then beyond this cost, what are the herd assessment cost, this can be from $10 to almost $20 per breeding female per year.
We offer an affordable solution.
If you intend to produce reliable EPDs and not just a set of numbers for the animals in such an anything goes "registry" (database would be a more appropriate name) then the across breed EPD comparisons need extensive improvement before they could be used for such a purpose. MARC produced the across breed EPD comparison table as a demonstration project to show that it could be done but not to guarantee that the information contained in the numbers are in fact accurate. The problem stems from two main areas:
1.The genetics used were from the most popular AI bulls in each breed and in many cases are not representative of the genetics of the breeds used as a whole
2. In many cases only small populations of each breed were being evaluated at any one time. Some rarer breeds such as the Welsh Black or Luing aren't even on the table. What do you do then?
These two problems with the across breed EPD comparisons can be corrected but it would take plenty of research funding over a decade to do this. Do you have the funding and time to do this?
The next big problem with everyone doing their own thing in small, unique populations how do you make genetic progress when selecting breeding stock? In composite breed development you want to keep track of the breeds used so the end users of your genetics can maximize hybrid vigor and complementarity in order to get the maximum benefit from a crossbreeding program. This association would not help in that manner.
Take a look at the Beefbooster website as this does what you want to do only with discipline and insight into synthetic line development you would need to make this work: http://www.beefbooster.com/
Lastly, whom are the brain trust behind this "association"? How do they plan on financing their start up costs? Why use your registry when most other associations have herd books recording the vast majority of composite cattle?
The idea of composite or synthetic beef breeds is not new and has been research into the ground by people like Dr. Roy Berg since the 1950's: http://www.ualberta.ca/ALUMNI/history/faculties/86autkin.htm.
Looking forward to the answers to our questions but look at the links before you post.
1.The genetics used were from the most popular AI bulls in each breed and in many cases are not representative of the genetics of the breeds used as a whole
2. In many cases only small populations of each breed were being evaluated at any one time. Some rarer breeds such as the Welsh Black or Luing aren't even on the table. What do you do then?
These two problems with the across breed EPD comparisons can be corrected but it would take plenty of research funding over a decade to do this. Do you have the funding and time to do this?
The next big problem with everyone doing their own thing in small, unique populations how do you make genetic progress when selecting breeding stock? In composite breed development you want to keep track of the breeds used so the end users of your genetics can maximize hybrid vigor and complementarity in order to get the maximum benefit from a crossbreeding program. This association would not help in that manner.
Take a look at the Beefbooster website as this does what you want to do only with discipline and insight into synthetic line development you would need to make this work: http://www.beefbooster.com/
Lastly, whom are the brain trust behind this "association"? How do they plan on financing their start up costs? Why use your registry when most other associations have herd books recording the vast majority of composite cattle?
The idea of composite or synthetic beef breeds is not new and has been research into the ground by people like Dr. Roy Berg since the 1950's: http://www.ualberta.ca/ALUMNI/history/faculties/86autkin.htm.
Looking forward to the answers to our questions but look at the links before you post.
If you intend to produce reliable EPDs and not just a set of numbers for the animals in such an anything goes "registry" (database would be a more appropriate name) then the across breed EPD comparisons need extensive improvement before they could be used for such a purpose. MARC produced the across breed EPD comparison table as a demonstration project to show that it could be done but not to guarantee that the information contained in the numbers are in fact accurate.
Reliable EPD's can be produced. While it is true that MARC did some research, there is also the BIF (Beef Improvement Federation) which comes out annually with the breed adjustment tables.
http://www.beefimprovement.org/PDFs/2010%20ABEPD%20press%20release.pdf
Build a Better Mouse Trap
We think that there is a better way. These BIF tables of breed adjustments are required to account for not only breed genetic differences, but also differences between bases of expression used by independent genetic evaluation systems applied by each of the breeds (i.e. definition of 0 EPD is not the same for each breed). With our EPD's, such a table is not needed because all of the breed data is analyzed together in a single system and a common base of expression is used for all breeds. Different breeds and crossbred cattle can be directly compared without having to make any adjustments. This is both a simpler, and a more accurate approach. http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/8/2019
The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is not just an idea that came about overnight, and we have spent several years, time and research in putting this registry together.
The next big problem with everyone doing their own thing in small, unique populations how do you make genetic progress when selecting breeding stock? In composite breed development you want to keep track of the breeds used so the end users of your genetics can maximize hybrid vigor and complementarity in order to get the maximum benefit from a crossbreeding program. This association would not help in that manner.
There are three groups of cattle, British, Continental and Bos Indicus with different breeds within each of these, so the possible composite combinations are numerous. There will be British Composites, examples: (Angus/Hereford) (Angus/Shorthorn/Hereford/Red Angus). Next there will be Continental Composites, examples (Simmental/Gelbvieh), (Simmental/Limousin), (Charolais/Gelbvieh), etc. There will be British/Continental Composites, examples: (Angus/Charolais), (Hereford/Gelbvieh), (Angus/Shorthorn/Simmental/Gelbvieh), etc. And then there will also be British/Continental/Bos Indicus Composites, examples: (Angus/Gelbvieh/Brahman), (Brangus/Shorthorn/Gelbvieh), (Santa Gertrudis/Angus/Gelbvieh), etc.
We can separate out any combination and keep track of the breeds without any problem. Each animals breed makeup will be documented. This Registry even with different groups of breeders doing their own thing can still know the genetic progress of their Composite. So if we have 25 members who are choosing to breed (Angus/Shorthorn) composites, and we have 100 members who are choosing to breed (Angus/Gelbvieh/Shorthorn) composites, either one of these so called groups will have no problem in comparing their animals with each other, but they will also be able to see how their animal compares with any other breed or combination of breeds without having to find a chart with adjustments and a calculator.
Breeders breed cattle of one or more breeds both separately or cross them for Composites. If you are a breeder and you raise Registered Angus, Registered Simmental, and a few Registered Gelbvieh; How do you compare each of these breeds to each other with EPD's that have been calculated by each registry? Now cross the Simmental and the Gelbvieh with the Angus, or what if you cross a SimAngus with the Balancer, wow this can really complicate things, now you have 6 different EPD's. A bull customer pulls up and starts asking questions about how each one of these EPD's, now what? If all of these crosses had an Across Breed EPD, comparison to each other would be quite easy, right?
The Composite Beef Cattle Registry while we can track any combination of breed makeup is not single breed or composite makeup. Looking at the BeefBooster website, what is a BeefBooster? what is their breed makeup? I didn't see what breeds they used to create them.
Take a look at the Beefbooster website as this does what you want to do only with discipline and insight into synthetic line development you would need to make this work
Are you saying that breeders who are breeding Composites combining different breeds for specific traits or purpose are not disciplined or have insight? I hope not! There are several very knowledgeable breeders who are breeding and developing Composites with different breed makeups. Not all Composite combinations can be registered in any of the existing breed associations, what would you want them to do? Are you saying to bad so sad, you want to do things differently so that is just tough?
I agree, composite are not new, and yes they have been researched. But I think that other innovators have had more to do with the creation and development of Composite cattle. Look at the Santa Gertrudis, http://santagertrudis.com/History, developed well before the 1950's. Look at the history of many of the base breeds today, most of them were developed in the 1800's and some are even older by crossing different breeds together. So no Composites are not new just some of the breed combinations.
As mentioned earlier The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is not an idea or thought that just came about. The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is a collaborative effort and/or partnership(s) of individuals, industry professionals and business entities with extensive knowledge of livestock production, genetics and technology who have a vested interest in its success.
Reliable EPD's can be produced. While it is true that MARC did some research, there is also the BIF (Beef Improvement Federation) which comes out annually with the breed adjustment tables.
http://www.beefimprovement.org/PDFs/2010%20ABEPD%20press%20release.pdf
Build a Better Mouse Trap
We think that there is a better way. These BIF tables of breed adjustments are required to account for not only breed genetic differences, but also differences between bases of expression used by independent genetic evaluation systems applied by each of the breeds (i.e. definition of 0 EPD is not the same for each breed). With our EPD's, such a table is not needed because all of the breed data is analyzed together in a single system and a common base of expression is used for all breeds. Different breeds and crossbred cattle can be directly compared without having to make any adjustments. This is both a simpler, and a more accurate approach. http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/8/2019
The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is not just an idea that came about overnight, and we have spent several years, time and research in putting this registry together.
The next big problem with everyone doing their own thing in small, unique populations how do you make genetic progress when selecting breeding stock? In composite breed development you want to keep track of the breeds used so the end users of your genetics can maximize hybrid vigor and complementarity in order to get the maximum benefit from a crossbreeding program. This association would not help in that manner.
There are three groups of cattle, British, Continental and Bos Indicus with different breeds within each of these, so the possible composite combinations are numerous. There will be British Composites, examples: (Angus/Hereford) (Angus/Shorthorn/Hereford/Red Angus). Next there will be Continental Composites, examples (Simmental/Gelbvieh), (Simmental/Limousin), (Charolais/Gelbvieh), etc. There will be British/Continental Composites, examples: (Angus/Charolais), (Hereford/Gelbvieh), (Angus/Shorthorn/Simmental/Gelbvieh), etc. And then there will also be British/Continental/Bos Indicus Composites, examples: (Angus/Gelbvieh/Brahman), (Brangus/Shorthorn/Gelbvieh), (Santa Gertrudis/Angus/Gelbvieh), etc.
We can separate out any combination and keep track of the breeds without any problem. Each animals breed makeup will be documented. This Registry even with different groups of breeders doing their own thing can still know the genetic progress of their Composite. So if we have 25 members who are choosing to breed (Angus/Shorthorn) composites, and we have 100 members who are choosing to breed (Angus/Gelbvieh/Shorthorn) composites, either one of these so called groups will have no problem in comparing their animals with each other, but they will also be able to see how their animal compares with any other breed or combination of breeds without having to find a chart with adjustments and a calculator.
Breeders breed cattle of one or more breeds both separately or cross them for Composites. If you are a breeder and you raise Registered Angus, Registered Simmental, and a few Registered Gelbvieh; How do you compare each of these breeds to each other with EPD's that have been calculated by each registry? Now cross the Simmental and the Gelbvieh with the Angus, or what if you cross a SimAngus with the Balancer, wow this can really complicate things, now you have 6 different EPD's. A bull customer pulls up and starts asking questions about how each one of these EPD's, now what? If all of these crosses had an Across Breed EPD, comparison to each other would be quite easy, right?
The Composite Beef Cattle Registry while we can track any combination of breed makeup is not single breed or composite makeup. Looking at the BeefBooster website, what is a BeefBooster? what is their breed makeup? I didn't see what breeds they used to create them.
Take a look at the Beefbooster website as this does what you want to do only with discipline and insight into synthetic line development you would need to make this work
Are you saying that breeders who are breeding Composites combining different breeds for specific traits or purpose are not disciplined or have insight? I hope not! There are several very knowledgeable breeders who are breeding and developing Composites with different breed makeups. Not all Composite combinations can be registered in any of the existing breed associations, what would you want them to do? Are you saying to bad so sad, you want to do things differently so that is just tough?
I agree, composite are not new, and yes they have been researched. But I think that other innovators have had more to do with the creation and development of Composite cattle. Look at the Santa Gertrudis, http://santagertrudis.com/History, developed well before the 1950's. Look at the history of many of the base breeds today, most of them were developed in the 1800's and some are even older by crossing different breeds together. So no Composites are not new just some of the breed combinations.
As mentioned earlier The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is not an idea or thought that just came about. The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is a collaborative effort and/or partnership(s) of individuals, industry professionals and business entities with extensive knowledge of livestock production, genetics and technology who have a vested interest in its success.
comercialfarmer
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- Aug 29, 2010
- Messages
- 196
cbcr said:
CBCR,
Again, I'm not saying that composite animals cannot serve a function. I have also had plenty of training in genetics in the past. I read your links. The links do not provide near enough information about how they are claiming to have arrived at their conclusions and data and method to interpret. I will say that if heterosis was maintained (and by this I mean kept at a constant level) in a population of composites, then you would not have control over consistency. If you have control over consistency, then you lose heterosis.
I have a link for you on Mendelian inheritance:
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/biobookgenintro.html
The following image illustrates my point.
Otherwise you end up with a new consistent type. This type may be very useful such as the Santa Gertrudis in warm climates. But to say that breeding a Santa Gertrudis to a Santa Gertrudis will provide heterosis is not accurate. No different than breeding an Angus to an Angus. All breeds had to be created at some point?
Somewhere it mentioned starting with a similar type animal or color, I think this would likely limit your genetic diversity before even getting started.
I could write a novel here, but will let that suffice. Good luck in your adventure, let's just not confuse anyone in the industry while doing it.
