new shorty herd sire opinions welcome

[caledon101]

I would use him on virgin heifers in a heartbeat. Every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

[RyanChandler]

You can do what you want but the fact if the matter is, by the standards of anyone with any financial or cattle sense, that bull is not appropriate to use on heifers.  Your comment is irresponsible and should be taken into consideration with any advice you give going forward.

 

[ctroidl]

I'm just curious caledon 101 what about the bull makes you believe he is sutable for heifers? As stated previously his pedigree doesn't really favor great calving ease or birth weight genetics. Is he really smooth shouldered for example, what makes this bull heifer safe in your mind.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Bull looks like a heifer to me. I agree with others on here and say recommending him on heifers is letting your pride get the better of you. How many heifers have calves to him? I was sold a "heifer bull" once. Many dead cows and calves later, I learned different. To me calving ease in proven in a bloodline over time. Many factors could have led him to have a 70 bw. His front half lacks a lot to me. Very feminine looking. No offense but that bulls pedigree is saturated. It's hard to move a bull bred like that when 95% of females in the breed are bred very similar.

 

[caledon101]

You know XBAR, the one thing that seems consistent is that some people on this site have a lack of tolerance for any opinion or viewpoint that differs from their own.
"Audacious, financially irresponsible, how do you sleep at night.... etc....where do you come up with this crap?
A man posts a picture of his bull calf because he's proud and would like to share that with others and all he gets for it is grief.
I know it sounds incredible but there are cattle producers out there both purebred and commercial, who don't have the resources, flexibility or luxury of NOT using an unproven young sire on their virgin heifers. Yearling bulls actually breeding yearling heifers??...it happens!
I actually have direct management experience with both this bull calf and his Dam plus her other progeny. AND, if I was in position where I had to use an unproven young sire on unproven virgin heifers he is DEFINITELY an individual I would chance. Is there a risk? Sure there is.

 

[ctroidl]

Trevorgreycattleco: well said!

Caledon 101: despite my opposition to your position you are absolutely right, this is someone's  personal work we are critiquing and need to mindful of the producer. Despite my views on the bulls pedigree, my opinion is merely one mans. I don't think anyone can argue this bull is extremely stylish, although in my eyes he does look more like a heifer, regardless this is a mans "work" comments are stated with all do respect.

 

[RyanChandler]

The grief is and should be directed at you because it's obvious you had an interest, financial or otherwise, in the selling of this bull. Otherwise, no one in their right mind would suggest this bull is acceptable for heifers. I have zero tolerance for anyone who preys on the unknowing and, as someone in the know, I feel I have an obligation to point out when less than desirable marketing practices are taking place.  I didn't present any opinions but rather facts concluded after being on the end of a pair of pulling chains too many times as a result of poor mating selections. My intentions are not to ridicule the owner but rather point out the bull's limitations and present valid concerns to newcomers in an objective manner. Our concern, is that this bull lacks the masculinity one would like to see in a herd sire prospect.  Our concern, is not that this white bull is unproven but rather the fact that his pedigree is very proven: proven to both be very difficult calving and also have very high birth weights. This is not some opinion or viewpoint, these are documented facts substantiated by both the American and Canadian Shorthorn Associations.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

You know XBAR, the one thing that seems consistent is that some people on this site have a lack of tolerance for any opinion or viewpoint that differs from their own.
"Audacious, financially irresponsible, how do you sleep at night.... etc....where do you come up with this crap?
A man posts a picture of his bull calf because he's proud and would like to share that with others and all he gets for it is grief.
I know it sounds incredible but there are cattle producers out there both purebred and commercial, who don't have the resources, flexibility or luxury of NOT using an unproven young sire on their virgin heifers. Yearling bulls actually breeding yearling heifers??...it happens!
I actually have direct management experience with both this bull calf and his Dam plus her other progeny. AND, if I was in position where I had to use an unproven young sire on unproven virgin heifers he is DEFINITELY an individual I would chance. Is there a risk? Sure there is.


Yes many unproven sires are used each year to breed heifers. But common sense should tell one to use a bull from proven calving ease on both the dam and sire side. Maybe your cows are capable of having a calf out of him. That's your environment. I can't debate that. What I can debate is using this bull on heifers in general by looking at his pedigree suggests this is no bueno. It's always nice to sell a bull. I've lost a lot of sleep worrying the bulls I sold did a good job and made the new owners money. I hope this bull works out well. But it's a pretty little limb to go out on to call him calving ease until he is proven. I can promise you, this bull turned out on a bunch of F1 heifers would be a mess. To me, this bull is geared toward show heifers. That's it.

When you ask for opinions on here, you better be prepared for good and bad. They are after all just opinions.

 

[knabe]

Actually the seedstock industry needs both.

 

[caledon101]

I'm absolutely fine with others disagreeing with my viewpoint on this very interesting calf. Admittedly, he's a prospect and unproven.

 

[justintime]

I think it is most important that anyone who posts on here, better accept that there is going to be a wide variety of opinions. You have to stick to your beliefs and charge on if you truly believe what you are doing is right.
I was criticized royally for using a bull here, that a number of the same people who are commenting here, told me would be a cow killer and a disastrous breeding sire in my herd. I was convinced that he deserved to be used as I knew that he offered some traits that have been very hard to find. I was told he would create calving nightmares here. I was told his breeding was an abomination.
Well, I went ahead and used him anyway and I have now had 3 sets of calves and have another on the way. To date, 100% of his calves have been born unassisted. This included one calf that was born out of a heifer. She was bred on pasture as a heifer calf and by the time I realized she was in calf, my vet said we would probably create more issues aborting the calf and it was better to deal with her when she calved. One morning last spring I found a heifer calf beside her, and she had already sucked the heifer dry. She has grown into a very good heifer. Back to this sires calves,... They are the best performing calves I have ever worked with. They are some of the most docile calves I have ever seen, many of which don't even seem to need to be halter broke. It is really quite amazing!His sons not only grow fast but they have the best ultrasound I have ever got from any I have done. The ultrasound tech commented last spring, that this bulls sons had the best combination of rib eye area and marbling from several hundred sire groups of all breeds tested.  His daughters are feminine and fertile and from daughters I have seen in some other herds, they are making great momma cows. I have only culled one son for having too heavy a birth weight, and other than that one male calf, every other son has been sold as a breeding bull. Several have sold to commercial herds, and have not created calving problems for them.

Long story shorter, if I had listened to what some of the gurus on here told me, I would never have turned this bull out with my cows. It would have been the worst mistake I have ever made in all my years breeding cattle. So... take everyone's comments as personal opinions, even if they are pretty harsh, and if you truly believe what you are doing is right charge on and if it doesn't work, remember your mistake for future reference. There is no such thing as failure until you stop trying. The only true mistakes are the ones that you do not learn from.
Personally, I think your bull deserves to be tested in your herd. I know what you are trying to produce with your breeding program and he may be a great asset to you. The guys on here that are the most critical of him, really never have any need to use him or any of his offspring. That is why it is good there is a wide variety of bloodlines for everyone to use.

 

[caledon101]

Renegade posted a picture of his bull calf and invited comments. He intentionally chummed the waters and I'm sure he wasn't surprised by the outcome.
EPD's and pedigrees are important tools and information. Breeding cattle requires essential decision making and planning. The more information you have in front of you the better your odds of making the best choices. It is no different than managing any other business. You assemble as much readily available information as possible and then within a reasonable period of time take the best course of action. The most successful stockbrokers on Wall St. come out on top consistently because they have access to more/better information than the general public. Not fair but true. They are not afraid to go in a different direction than the crowd and take a risk because they understand how to manage it.
Sometimes we are right; sometimes not. What's important for success is to be right more often than wrong and, to learn from  experience.
There are two kinds of mistakes...."learning" and "fatal". Understanding the difference between the two and not committing the latter seems to be the common thread in the profile of successful individuals and organizations.
JIT....you are one of Canada's most successful and respected purebred producers. As I see it, your ability to retain and reference historical information especially helps you as you move forward with your committment to continous improvement. You utilize past knowledge and experience to make progessive decisions for the future. 

If we wanted to, some of us could post quite an assortment of the show winning and breed influencing animals we have produced over the years. It would make for a very interesting conversation and thread. Unfortunately it would also draw the usual crime scene investigators who seem unable to resist the gravitational pull of negativity.

Renegade, If I wanted to accept the risk of using an unproven yearling bull to pasture breed my virgin heifers I would use your bull in a heart beat. Is there a risk? Of course there is....but, breeding cattle involves more than just numbers.

 

[aj]

I still question the value of the Timeline bull in the industry. 105 birth weight....26 calves registered in the ASA over three years. I won't be convinced untill he is bred to 1,000 cows across the USA and no complaints are filed about dystocia problems. Breeding him to big registered cows in my opinion isn't a good test. jmo

 

[caledon101]

How realistic is it to breed a bull to 1000 cows and expect zero calving ease issues? 50% of the genetics involved in every mating come from the female. And, there are infinite levels of management styles and environments that also influence dystocia.
I don't consider his 105 lb birth weight to be an issue. What interests me much more is the ratio of his birth weight to the weight of his Dam. If she's 1700 lbs then that's a 6% ratio. 6% of his Dams body weight is very acceptable to me. Gestation length always interests me. Interesting to see how so many of the calving ease sires available produce progeny with shorter gestations.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Oh JIT why don't you just say Timeline. Say I was one of the naysayers. Call a spade a spade. I'll stick to my belief any bull or cow out of salute is strictly show cattle. Those EPD's must be bogus on him I guess.
I've also never really heard JIT knock a animal he is using or promoting either. They are always the best set of calves ever. Either it's about Leroy. Or maybe Timeline. Or maybe Bar Code. Touchdown? How about Rockstar? My
Point is you tend to always speak highly of your cattle. That's good marketing on your part. All any of us can do is go by what you say. We aren't there during calving season. However the numbers suggest lots of of producers have had bw issues. It's black and white. Maybe you are the exception not the rule. Who knows. My opinion will never change on these bloodlines as I'm sure nobody else will budge either.

Is semen available on timeline yet? Seems to me with all the good he has done and Leroy is dead, it makes sense to open him up and let  everybody else sample him and find out. Wouldn't it be a shame if someone has the next big bull for the breed but won't sell semen?

 

[justintime]

We have tried to collect Timeline as we have had numerous requests for semen, many of which come from breeders in Britain and Australia. Unfortunately, he has picked up a titre for leucosis and we can not collect him. The federal vets say they do not know for sure where this would have come from, but the suspect it is picked up from other animals in nature. It is a disease that affects the animals immune system, and may or may not shorten their life. To date, Timeline doesn't seem to be affected. Back in the 70s, we had the same thing happen with Irish Mist, a few months after he arrived from Ireland. We were only able to collect once here in Canada, before he tested positive for leucosis. He was 14 years old when he died during surgery for a twisted gut. The US does not require testing for leucosis so we got a show permit for Irish Mist and ran him across the border and collected a few thousand doses, but none of it was exportable. We could probably do the same thing with Timeline, but we have decided to collect a couple sons instead. The first sons we collected were Shady Lane Rockstar 9X and HC Free Spirit 6Y. and we are in the process of getting semen sent to Europe, USA and Australia, besides Canada on Free Spirit. He has proven to be an incredible semen producer, as they processed 1362 straws from his first collection day. We already have semen on Rockstar in the US, Australia and Canada.

I only brought this up because of all the negative banter on here. There are many opinions on here, and I am just saying, a person has to take them as just that. A person can totally disagree with someone else's opinion, but the discussion is good because they do make a person think about their own decisions. We all have the freedom to make our own decisions about our breeding programs, and we should be very thankful for this. Thank God we all do not think alike or there would be a real shortage of fresh genetics to use. I do think there is nothing wrong with disagreement, but I also think there are much better ways to disagree than to simply insult other people.

 

[frostback]

The grief is and should be directed at you because it's obvious you had an interest, financial or otherwise, in the selling of this bull. Otherwise, no one in their right mind would suggest this bull is acceptable for heifers. I have zero tolerance for anyone who preys on the unknowing and, as someone in the know, I feel I have an obligation to point out when less than desirable marketing practices are taking place.  I didn't present any opinions but rather facts concluded after being on the end of a pair of pulling chains too many times as a result of poor mating selections. My intentions are not to ridicule the owner but rather point out the bull's limitations and present valid concerns to newcomers in an objective manner. Our concern, is that this bull lacks the masculinity one would like to see in a herd sire prospect.  Our concern, is not that this white bull is unproven but rather the fact that his pedigree is very proven: proven to both be very difficult calving and also have very high birth weights. This is not some opinion or viewpoint, these are documented facts substantiated by both the American and Canadian Shorthorn Associations.

Who is "our"? Who are you speaking for? I for one don't like people speaking for me, I make my own decisions and stand behind them and if they don't work out I don't blame others. I would like to see the documents you are talking about from the associations also.

 

[oakview]

After all this discussion, the white calf still looks good to me.  If the man says he weighed 70 pounds at birth, I believe him.  I have used Trump, his sons, and grandsons, for nearly 20 years.  The only real issue I've had with calving difficulties during this time was with the negative birth EPD bull I bought several years ago.  135 pound calf out of a Leggs 21 daughter, 130 pound calf out of a Durango daughter.  No Trump in those pedigrees.  70 or slightly above birth weights all over the bull's pedigree.  Negative or only slightly positive birth EPDs everywhere.  Only 1 or 2 of my Trump daughters and granddaughters needed asstance calving, bred to the same bull at the same time.  None of them had a 100 pound calf.  Do I hold the breeder of the bull I bought responsible?  No.  I've known him for many years and trusted the ancestry of the bull as listed.  Dale Studer told me almost 20 years ago he used Trump for calving ease.  That's when I tried it.  The thing that bothers me most on the thread is the comment about losing many cows and calves over the years.  I just don't know of many places where that happens.  The last I remember was when I taught high school ag 25 years ago and one of my student's families bought 50 black white heifers bred to Salers bulls.  They lost a boat load of heifers, and saved very few calves.  That was a train wreck.

 

[cpubarn]

I think "chummed the waters" was an apt quote.  Life is much better since we are not all alike.  Shorthorn breeders that visit this page aren't of a like mind and I think the discussion can be good.  All it takes is a walk down a bull stud like Hawkeye in Adel, Iowa to see the diverse nature of the species.  Clubby, Angus, Holstein, Simmental, Devon and many unique sires can be seen walking down the Isles.  No matter how much a few people on this board are convinced their opinions are the only one that matters, stick to your guns, breed some cows like YOU like and see if they find a market.  To a point I think that you are all right, that there is a niche' for all of you.

BTW - If it matters I'm interested in finding a showy looking sire to cross on a couple of more practical shorthorns in a year or two, so keep us up to date on offspring of this white bull, because it is the calves from this bull that I would like to see... 

Until then have fun with the discussion.....  I honestly think you all enjoy it or you would not be here.  I'm just glad you aren't all related and have to have this discussion around the dinner table because I think some of you would throw food...

 

[knabe]

I'd tell my grandson that aj is Santa and go pull on his beard to see if it's real.