Oakview General 507Z

[oakview]

It sure makes me happy to use a bull I think is going to work on my cows and get something like this! Oakview General 507Z (Diamond Zulu x Oakview Lace 303J). Triple clean. Zulu sure works on Trump line females.

 

[Duncraggan]

Nice looking bull, if you cover his sheath with one finger, and his head with another! JMO, but I feel his sheath is too pronounced/pendulous and is not a good trait. Also, the 'woodpecker' head typical of Trump progeny is a personal dislike. I don't know why, but the convex, long head just screams dystocia and narrow muzzles at me!

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Well-sheath or not-If you have a bull calf that has even  half the performance that this calf shows-I want to see him O0

 

[aj]

Photos are so hard to interpet. Is he on full feed? Is he just coming off breeding 40 heifers. Seems long nosed to me and I would like to see a lot more crest to his neck. However 90% of Shorthorns look like that.

 

[Duncraggan]

Well-sheath or not-If you have a bull calf that has even  half the performance that this calf shows-I want to see him O0

'Dead calves have distressingly low weaning weights' Unknown Author Lasater maybe?

 

[oakview]

Who said this calf (or his relatives in my herd) were so big at birth they all should have died?  How can you tell he has a narrow muzzle from the side view?  I guess I should sell this calf at the sale barn tomorrow, get rid of all my cows with Trump in them that evidently don't work because they have noses too long.  Maybe you can find me one of those easy calving, square headed, broad muzzled bulls that would be more to your liking.  They surely must be the answer.  Oh, yeah.  I tried those for the first 30 years we had Shorthorns.  We learned it was very difficult to get a square head out of a round hole.  I just put the photo on here because all the visitors that see this calf are very impressed by him.  He's been criticized on this site for being:  too shallow, his ears are too big, his nose is too long, he does not have a wide muzzle, he doesn't have enough crest to his neck, he has a woodpecker head, he has too much sheath, and has Trump in him.  I guess next time I'll keep my photos to myself.  If I was an %#$, maybe I would criticize all the lousy cattle I see photos of on this site.  But I won't.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Well-sheath or not-If you have a bull calf that has even  half the performance that this calf shows-I want to see him O0

'Dead calves have distressingly low weaning weights' Unknown Author Lasater maybe?

- What a dumb statement-with no basis what so ever-There have been two hiefers in a row by that bulls sire out of one I bred-and niether one wieghed over 75 pounds but grew way well. How do I know this? Because Mr Flack wieghs all calves at birth-and his bull Trump Card-Like CF Prosperity is a DOCUMENTED CE bull-you probably have never heard of them-but there have probably been 2000 calves born out of these 2 bulls. O0

 

[mbigelow]

I think there are a lot of good qualities to this bull, length of side, nice muscle pattern, stout boned, good foot, and appears to be sound.  I would be concerned about the sheath but, that is a personal preference.  As for calving ease he is listed on the asa site as 86lbs and a calving ease score of 2 indicating he needed some assistance.  I don't know circumstances but would rater ask Oakview than make assumptions.  Bull looks good and I hope he does what you want.

 

[kiblercattle]

Like mbigelow says he does a lot of things right. He also does a few things wrong to but that's why we keep breeding cattle because not one of them is perfect. I hope you keep posting pictures because I always like to see what everyone likes and has going on in their herd. But criticism ei always be a part of it so I hope we can all handle a little of it.

 

[oakview]

The bull was out of a first calf heifer, I was there, so I helped.  I don't breed Zulu to heifers, this was an accident, because of his birth weight.  Zulu's siblings did not approach his birth weight, but I did have some concern about it.  I am happy to report that calving ease has not been an issue with him. 

Criticism is fine.  I don't mind if somebody thinks he has a little sheath, but the ridiculous comments about a long nose, big ears, and a narrow muzzle that screams calving problems seemed just that.  Ridiculous.

 

[mbigelow]

I figured there would be some background to the calving score.  I think this bull could work well on some smaller made, square headed, jazz or captin obvious type cattle.  Good bull thank for sharing. 

 

[RyanChandler]

I agree with AJ in that photos are hard to interpret.  I've taken many pictures of cattle that I didn't think accurately represented how they looked in person.  As someone posting pictures, I think you have to keep in mind that all on lookers have to go by is the representation you've presented.  How this bull looks in person, I can't say for sure but, FROM THE PICTURE, I think those commenting on the areas of concern have assessed this picture accurately.  Reducing my critique down to 1 strength and 1 weakness, I would have to say his strength is his rear muscle expression and the overall design of his rear 1/3,, his weakness being just a general lack of internal capacity/heart girth. 

 

[Dale]

It all boils down to whether you like or want to breed show cattle.  A major judge (not a Shorthorn person) said that many of the Trump females are among the best of any breed.  Like politics, some love Trump and others, not so much.  The show ring gravitates toward cattle with long fronts, eye-appeal, correctness, bone and muscle?, and lots of size.  Some show animals have EPD's I like and some don't.  Even if you do not care for CF Trump, there are some great cattle that go back to him.  Trump is like Toyota--they do something extremely well or they would not be so successful.

Mr. Flack (I have not met him in person) has recorded an amazing number of Shorthorn cattle.  If you go to the new website and put Oakview in animal search under name, it brings up a bunch.  From looking previously I'm rather certain that he has recorded hundreds and likely knows a good one when he sees it.  Also, Mr. Flack has a bull that has sired some good cattle AI through the semen companies.  Not many can say that.

This bull is not perfect, but it bugs me to see people so quick to criticize and not give General or other bulls their credit due.  The other day somebody ripped a pretty good bull by thinking they saw a fault.  Completely fault-free cattle are extremely rare and many do not pass that on.  Personally I like big ears--some growthy cattle have them and many with some Irish in the pedigree show that.  I personally dislike a small ear, but that is my bias.  For Mr. Flack to name him General, I expect he's better than the main herd sire in an average registered herd. 

Is breeding cattle not about mating animals with faults with other animals to correct those faults?  A perfect one would surely be worth 7 figures?  Last fall I was at the sale when a Trump female brought 100K, but I will not criticize her.  It will take a great one to beat her. 

When I was taught judging, we were instructed to criticize animals (fault them).  One thing we were warned about is that if you run an animal into the ground (say an animal is too small), the person you give reasons to at the contest may be the owner (usually a very accomplished breeder) and know the facts--that her/his animal is young in the class and has plenty of size, etc.

Everyone has a right to miss a good one.  If you have seen a lot of cattle, we all have done that.  General has plenty of merit.  He's growthy and has style.

Keep posting pictures, everyone.  All photos are distorted, so that has to be taken into account.

 

[OH Breeder]

Who said this calf (or his relatives in my herd) were so big at birth they all should have died?  How can you tell he has a narrow muzzle from the side view?  I guess I should sell this calf at the sale barn tomorrow, get rid of all my cows with Trump in them that evidently don't work because they have noses too long.  Maybe you can find me one of those easy calving, square headed, broad muzzled bulls that would be more to your liking.  They surely must be the answer.  Oh, yeah.  I tried those for the first 30 years we had Shorthorns.  We learned it was very difficult to get a square head out of a round hole.  I just put the photo on here because all the visitors that see this calf are very impressed by him.  He's been criticized on this site for being:  too shallow, his ears are too big, his nose is too long, he does not have a wide muzzle, he doesn't have enough crest to his neck, he has a woodpecker head, he has too much sheath, and has Trump in him.  I guess next time I'll keep my photos to myself.  If I was an %#$, maybe I would criticize all the lousy cattle I see photos of on this site.  But I won't.

I don't think you should keep your photos to yourself. Everyone has an opinion. As previously stated you can view the picture in one dimension. The viewers mind immediately draws assumptions based on the presentation of the bull flat without 3 dimensional view. With that being said. I like the way XBar put it.

Positive- like his growth, color pattern, muscle shaped seems to be developing
Negative- Excessive sheath-(it doesn't bother me but show ring doesn't like it.) I can't get a good handle if he breaks a bit behind his shoulder? I know you have a strong program. Take it all with grain of salt. Open forums may sometimes come across brutal. Other parts of the world their cattle don't necessarily resemble our ideals.

 

[knabe]

If I was an %#$, maybe I would criticize all the lousy cattle I see photos of on this site.  But I won't.

I will.  I'm an %#$.


i personally don't get the whole trump thing (cattle, i get the trump election thing), but apparently people buy them for some reason (and support trump the now politician because we are tired of D&R which are the same party of bribery), so they are paying registration fees, generally showing, selling cattle rather than complaining about show cattle.

 

[Duncraggan]

Who said this calf (or his relatives in my herd) were so big at birth they all should have died?  How can you tell he has a narrow muzzle from the side view?  I guess I should sell this calf at the sale barn tomorrow, get rid of all my cows with Trump in them that evidently don't work because they have noses too long.  Maybe you can find me one of those easy calving, square headed, broad muzzled bulls that would be more to your liking.  They surely must be the answer.  Oh, yeah.  I tried those for the first 30 years we had Shorthorns.  We learned it was very difficult to get a square head out of a round hole.  I just put the photo on here because all the visitors that see this calf are very impressed by him.  He's been criticized on this site for being:  too shallow, his ears are too big, his nose is too long, he does not have a wide muzzle, he doesn't have enough crest to his neck, he has a woodpecker head, he has too much sheath, and has Trump in him.  I guess next time I'll keep my photos to myself.  If I was an %#$, maybe I would criticize all the lousy cattle I see photos of on this site.  But I won't.

As the first respondent on this post, albeit that I qualified all my opinions as such, let me clarify my comments further.
If you post a picture on the forum asking for some comment, please be prepared to take any comments/criticism in the spirit that it is intended. It is like posting a target and expecting nobody to take a shot at it!
There is a vast difference between constructive/warranted criticism and the sometimes caustic comments posted on the forum. Yes, pictures are a two-dimensional representation at that specific time, but, from the picture, this bull does not have unkempt, scraggly, hair around his prepuce like mine have. You can therefore deduce, with fair accuracy, that he has a pronounced sheath, regardless of the angle of the photograph.
Bovines are not like a Hippopotamus, their muzzles become progressively narrower from the eyes to the muzzle. The longer the head, the narrower the muzzle! The muzzle is what takes in the grass, the narrower the muzzle, the more bites the animal needs to take to take in the same amount of grass. The more bites needed, the more energy expended to achieve the same end result as far as energy intake is concerned. The more energy used during basic metabolism and function, the less there is for putting on condition and reproducing. Is this not the definition of hard doing? I have had personal bad experiences with the progeny of Trump genetics in this regard.
My second post also seems to have been taken a bit further than was intended as there is definitely a direct correlation between performance and BW. At no point did I suggest or imply that O. General 507Z had a high BW, direct or EPD. This second post should be read in the context of my first post, namely that big heads give a higher chance of dystocia, nothing more.
Oakview, please accept my comments at face value, I am not criticizing you or your programme in any way, and have always admired the cattle lots posted that you buy at the sales posted on the forum. Although not in North America I always look at the SC catalogues and have choices that I watch for their final prices!

 

[Duncraggan]

It all boils down to whether you like or want to breed show cattle.  A major judge (not a Shorthorn person) said that many of the Trump females are among the best of any breed.  Like politics, some love Trump and others, not so much.  The show ring gravitates toward cattle with long fronts, eye-appeal, correctness, bone and muscle?, and lots of size.  Some show animals have EPD's I like and some don't.  Even if you do not care for CF Trump, there are some great cattle that go back to him.  Trump is like Toyota--they do something extremely well or they would not be so successful.

Mr. Flack (I have not met him in person) has recorded an amazing number of Shorthorn cattle.  If you go to the new website and put Oakview in animal search under name, it brings up a bunch.  From looking previously I'm rather certain that he has recorded hundreds and likely knows a good one when he sees it.  Also, Mr. Flack has a bull that has sired some good cattle AI through the semen companies.  Not many can say that.

This bull is not perfect, but it bugs me to see people so quick to criticize and not give General or other bulls their credit due.  The other day somebody ripped a pretty good bull by thinking they saw a fault.  Completely fault-free cattle are extremely rare and many do not pass that on.  Personally I like big ears--some growthy cattle have them and many with some Irish in the pedigree show that.  I personally dislike a small ear, but that is my bias.  For Mr. Flack to name him General, I expect he's better than the main herd sire in an average registered herd. 

Is breeding cattle not about mating animals with faults with other animals to correct those faults?  A perfect one would surely be worth 7 figures?  Last fall I was at the sale when a Trump female brought 100K, but I will not criticize her.  It will take a great one to beat her. 

When I was taught judging, we were instructed to criticize animals (fault them).  One thing we were warned about is that if you run an animal into the ground (say an animal is too small), the person you give reasons to at the contest may be the owner (usually a very accomplished breeder) and know the facts--that her/his animal is young in the class and has plenty of size, etc.

Everyone has a right to miss a good one.  If you have seen a lot of cattle, we all have done that.  General has plenty of merit.  He's growthy and has style.

Keep posting pictures, everyone.  All photos are distorted, so that has to be taken into account.

Dale, you have some valid points here.
Just like a judge places the animals, at a particular show, according to his opinion on the day, a picture posted on a forum is a two-dimensional portrayal of an animal at that specific time.
I have taken thousands of photographs, over many hours, of my own cattle and always think they do them no justice.
I have in the past, and will in the future post pictures of my cattle. I know I am in for criticism but am prepared for it, it comes with the territory! I have never, and will never be offended by constructive comments or criticism.
Keep posting pictures!

 

[Okotoks]

I hesitated commenting on this thread because I obviously have a bias in favour of the breeding! It is really easy to say things on social media that you would probably never say face to face. It is also really easy to jump to a conclusion and post it whether it is based on anything factual or not. Before Zulu went to Oakview we used him and were extremely pleased with his calves. We have three two year old heifers by him that are exceptional young females. They have fancy eye appealing calves that they delivered unassisted. They also have beautiful udders and their calves are doing well. As for the photo to me it shows a good fleshed bull with an exceptional hip and a shoulder and front end that should be easy calving, very similar to Zulu himself. I am not a big fan of the bigger sheath but that is a personal preference and I don't see why it would be much of an issue outside the show ring. Obviously a lot of Bos indicus cattle have sheaths that make his look small!
It is always rewarding when a buyer is pleased with offspring and I am happy you like your Zulu calves and the best of luck with them (thumbsup)
The two Zulu daughters shown are two year olds. The red is an April 20th shown today with her roan heifer born Jan. 31 unassisted with a 70 lb. birth weight. The roan is pictured the end of May, she was 2 years old March 26 and is shown with her red white marked heifer born April 10 , unassisted with an 83lb. birth weight.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Ive only seen pictures of 2 of his daughters-both of which are out of a very moderate cow . They came small-and way outgrew thier dam. And they look just like these 2 and him. They are too long legged and slope a little hooks to pins to show-but are certainly functional-and could be bred to a deeper ribbed CE bull to even out the side profile and add (in thier case) a fifth generation of CE with needed grow. He looks to be a very consistent bull-and hes made a little different from a lot of the deep middled stout Canadian bulls you see-but sure has some CE for a bull that big O0