On the "Rat tail deal?"

[aj]

Is the rat tail deal a worry that is over. I can't remember for sure but wasn't it a Black Simmi deal in the 80's? Seemed almost like it tied to the Black Angus deal somehow cause the Red Angus didn't have the problem? I guess I was wondering cause of some Black Angus lines crossing over into the Red Angus lines......thanks in advance.

 

[olsun]

As far as I know, rat tails only occur when the diluter gene is present. They also only happen when mixed with the black gene. Thus you could safely say rats can not occur with a black and red angus cross, or for that matter a red and diluter cross. If I am wrong, would someone please correct me.

 

[ruhtram]

Does anyone have some pictures of a "rat tail" calf?

 

[OH Breeder]

Does anyone have some pictures of a "rat tail" calf?

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=597.msg4354#msg4354

 

[justintime]

The only rat tails I am aware of were Angus X Charolais crosses. We used to see lots of them at feeder sales when we were feeding cattle. They usually had short kinky hair as well as the rat tail, and they were poorer performing cattle than normal cattle.They were usually discounted on the markets by as much as $.30 - .40. If they could be purchased cheap enough I would buy them and some of them gained decent and some would be the last to leave the pen. I'm not sure why they did not gain as well, but this is what made the cattle buyers not like them. This was back in the 80s and 90s, and many grey calves got discounted even if they weren't rat tails. These calves were excellent feeding cattle and usually could be purchased a little cheaper. Today, the Angus X Charolais cross is very popular, and I do not see many rat tail calves. I'm not sure if it was caused by certain genetics in either or both breeds, but it certainly seems there are not as many of them around.

 

[JSchroeder]

Are you 100% sure those were Angus x Charolais cross calves?

That's the time period when it was a REALLY big deal in the Simmental breed.  As the breed adopted the black gene the way it mixed with the diluter (simmental, not charolais) gene, which was at the time common in Simmentals, caused it.  The calves came out looking like a Char x Angus cross with a rat tail to somebody that didn't know the background on them.

Your timeline description fits in exactly with the times it was a problem in that breed to when it was pretty much gone.

 

[kanshow]

I haven't seen a rat tail in years.  I am not sure why.  We get a  couple gray calves every year which comes from the diluter gene on the reds in Simmentals.  Last year, the off colored cattle were still taking a hit at the sale barn but they sold right with the group this spring. We try to keep the gray or diluter cows in our recip herd but it doesn't always work out that way.

 

[justintime]

Are you 100% sure those were Angus x Charolais cross calves?

That's the time period when it was a REALLY big deal in the Simmental breed.  As the breed adopted the black gene the way it mixed with the diluter (simmental, not charolais) gene, which was at the time common in Simmentals, caused it.  The calves came out looking like a Char x Angus cross with a rat tail to somebody that didn't know the background on them.

Your timeline description fits in exactly with the times it was a problem in that breed to when it was pretty much gone.

The ones I was referring to were definitely Angus X Charolais. I did see some Angus X Simmi rat tails as well, but in this area, they were mainly Angus X Charolais. They were quite comment in the 80s and early 90s, but as Kanshow has said, they seem to be much less common today. It also seemed to happen only when black Angus were involved in the cross. I don't ever remember seeing a Red Angus cross rat tail.

 

[RyanChandler]

Rat tails are alive and well.  It is caused (rarely) when you mix the diluter and black.  Diluter gene is known in Charolais, Simmental, and Gelbvieh.  jus last year I had a rat tail calf out of a smoke cow (char x Angus) bred to my M6 Charolais bull.   No tail switch is the obvious indicator.   I have also seen a rat tail diluted black purebred Gelbvieh at a breeders in Waukomis, OK.  

 

[JSchroeder]

The Simmental and Charolais diluter genes are two different things.

 

[aj]

I had kinda forgot how the thing worked. Seems weird if it was only a problem with Black Angus. Could it be that some simmi or char blood crept into the black angus somewhere?

 

[ruhtram]

Does anyone have some pictures of a "rat tail" calf?

http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=597.msg4354#msg4354

Thank you

 

[RyanChandler]

The Simmental and Charolais diluter genes are two different things.

And...?

I had kinda forgot how the thing worked. Seems weird if it was only a problem with Black Angus. Could it be that some simmi or char blood crept into the black angus somewhere?

I've never heard of or seen it in black Angus besides when crossed with one of the diluter carrier breeds.  Besides Galloway, which are unheard in crossbreeding around here, what other real breed (not Angus cross and called purebred whatever) is black? ...that the "rat tail" could have a possibility of happening in?  Since rat tails only occur when black is mated to diluter...

 

[JSchroeder]

You said "Diluter gene" as in one gene in the three breeds.  It wasn't an attack, just trying to clarify it as people mix that up a lot.

 

[RyanChandler]

You said "Diluter gene" as in one gene in the three breeds.  It wasn't an attack, just trying to clarify it as people mix that up a lot.

All I know is that I've seen it in both the char and Gelbvieh.  Both instances when mated to black.  I understand you're saying they're different genes, and I agree, but there has to be some similarity in the diluter genes bc these are the only breeds when bred black that I've ever heard of that provide the potential for a rat tail.  Coincidentally, these are the only breeds I've ever heard of there being diluter genes in either.

 

[aj]

So maybe the "dilutor" gene only only affects locci on the black gene? And the Red gene is simply unnaffected?...........on Angus stuff.

 

[JSchroeder]

Xbar, it is certainly strange that the diluter genes seem to impact rat tails the same way.

While I know the Simmental and Charolais dilution genes are different, does anybody know if they’re the same in Gelbvieh and Simmental?  They both come from relatively similar backgrounds.

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

I've heard of rat tail herfs.. Anyone else?

Not sure on the Gelbvieh and Simmi dilutions being the same allele...

 

[Texas Dude]

Doonan will comment in 3, 2, 1....

 

[Shady Lane]

I used to work on a large ranch that had a purebred Charolais cow herd as well as a large commercial herd of Angus and Shorthorn cows.

We used to see rat tailed calves now and then, they were always off of the Char bulls and black cows.

We wrote down tag numbers when sending calves to the feedlot and found that they most often performed poorer and had poorer carcass quality as well.