Definitely see how on-line sales can cut down on overhead and just plain work. Those private treaty phone sales take a long time and LOTS and LOTS of phone calls. Imagine some of these big guys with 30 to 100 calves to sell....sometimes 10 or more calls per calf. Time adds up. If I had a sale would go with the online deal but remember....buyer beware and you should be fine.
Online Auctions Rigged?
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AG TEACHER
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Honstly
If you buy any calf SUS off of an internet auction you are nuts!
Right now is one of the worst times in history to sell cattle. The economy sucks cattle are are record highs feed is at record highs and no one is buying cattle because they cannot afford them!
We used to sell more by accident 10 yrs ago than we do now! No one is looking buying or expanding!
If you buy any calf SUS off of an internet auction you are nuts!
Right now is one of the worst times in history to sell cattle. The economy sucks cattle are are record highs feed is at record highs and no one is buying cattle because they cannot afford them!
We used to sell more by accident 10 yrs ago than we do now! No one is looking buying or expanding!
Mueller Show Cattle
Well-known member
AG TEACHER said:
If no one is buying cattle rite now, how are cattle at such a high price? People are still buying the cattle or the prices would not be this high. Ranchers are selling there calves around here rite now and they are selling for good prices in the auction barns, so people are buying cattle.
OH Breeder
Well-known member
I thought there were less top end calves like the $40k one's. A few of the sales the past two years that had $25-50 top sellers didn't have them this year. Maybe just me.
I have participated in online auctions but you definitely want to see the calves in person. I have found a huge contrast in the video and pictures as to real life.
I have participated in online auctions but you definitely want to see the calves in person. I have found a huge contrast in the video and pictures as to real life.
JSchroeder
Well-known member
Once the added expenses and time are taken into account, the net gain over just taking 'show calves' the auction barn becomes a loss. The "profit" at that level is an emotional one.
sjcattleco
Well-known member
Big M Show Cattle said:
Taking your cattle to an auction barn does not qualify as people buying cattle!!! Those buyers buy cattle EVERYDAY!!!! People "buying" cattle means that you have 2 calls a week 3 trucks a month pull in and folks are looking at your stock in the fields just about every Saturday or Sunday...and half of them write you a check and the majority of what you wanted to sell off the ranch is gone!! that is what is meant by people buying cattle. I don't know of anyone actually moving anything despite what they might say or do!!!
Mueller Show Cattle
Well-known member
I kinda agree with Jeff for a certain extent. If you are running this as a business, your time is worth money. My low end calves are a $1,000, I don't put the time into those calves as I do my upper end calves. If I don't like the calf much by the looks, I put very little time into that calf but still put it on creep feed as that cost is minimal. The calves I like more I put more time into them with the grooming and halter breaking. But there is always kids that don't have the money to be spending even 3 or 4K on a calf and we were in that class before we started breeding our own. Those usually buy the $1,000 calves which is nothing wrong with that as they will just have to put a little more time in with that calf than the higher priced ones and the seller gets more money that way than taking them to the sale barn. Then if that $1000 calf explodes and takes off and does well in a show, you still sold that calf which helps you for marketing.
Mueller Show Cattle
Well-known member
Taking your cattle to an auction barn does not qualify as people buying cattle!!! Those buyers buy cattle EVERYDAY!!!! People "buying" cattle means that you have 2 calls a week 3 trucks a month pull in and folks are looking at your stock in the fields just about every Saturday or Sunday...and half of them write you a check and the majority of what you wanted to sell off the ranch is gone!! that is what is meant by people buying cattle. I don't know of anyone actually moving anything despite what they might say or do!!!
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I disagree, more cattle are moved through the auction barns and big internet sales. Example, the big ranches by us that sell 1,000 plus calves a year all do the video internet/TV auctions and then trailers come and pick up them calves after the sale is over. Either way the cattle move and there are buyers which helps determine the cattle market prices, not from just more buyers but on supply and demand which effects prices on everything. Whether those buyers are feed lot buyers or not they are buyers. Not talking about club calf cattle prices, just cattle prices period. Cause if a rancher markets his cattle price much different (higher) then those that are selling through the auction barn or internet auctions for the same type of cattle, people are not going to be buying. If I take a cow to a sale barn, someone is still BUYING that cow as I'm getting a check. You might disagree but where ever them cattle sales take place, it is still buying.
[/quote]
I disagree, more cattle are moved through the auction barns and big internet sales. Example, the big ranches by us that sell 1,000 plus calves a year all do the video internet/TV auctions and then trailers come and pick up them calves after the sale is over. Either way the cattle move and there are buyers which helps determine the cattle market prices, not from just more buyers but on supply and demand which effects prices on everything. Whether those buyers are feed lot buyers or not they are buyers. Not talking about club calf cattle prices, just cattle prices period. Cause if a rancher markets his cattle price much different (higher) then those that are selling through the auction barn or internet auctions for the same type of cattle, people are not going to be buying. If I take a cow to a sale barn, someone is still BUYING that cow as I'm getting a check. You might disagree but where ever them cattle sales take place, it is still buying.
How about if you have a budget of 5000 and you win the calf for 4000. You did good, correct? Well what if the actual last bidder was only at 2800 and the remaining was bid up by a fake account. Is that fair? You got your calf under budget but you still over paid by 1100 because you could had the calf at 2900.
justintime
Well-known member
I expect there will be an increase in online sales but I doubt if they will ever take the place of auction sales. Auction sales are expensive to hold, and are an incredible amount of work, Anyone who has never had their own auction sale probably doesn't know just how much work is involved. The work is even more if you hold your auction sale at another location other than at yoru farm. The work after an auction sale can also be considerable. That said, there are some elements of holding an auction that online sales can never replace. Being able to attend a sale and see the cattle in person, gives you a much better idea of the quality of the sale offering and the breeding program behind them. It gives you an opportunity to meet other people and visit with old friends and make new ones. This business is as much a "people business" as it is just the "cattle business". An online sale doesn't offer this opportunity. I think the " human" side of buying and selling cattle is an important ingredient to your breeding programs success.
I have held 3 online sales in recent years and have consigned to several others. In my case, almost all these have been embryo, pregnancies and flushes, which I think is a bit different that selling live cattle. My online sales themselves have had moderate successes, and they do offer me the opportunity to offer a wide selection of genetics, as there is no real increases in costs other than my time. I never expect that all the lots will sell in the online sale, but I also never have been able to determine before the sale, as to which ones will be sold. I am always a bit surprised as to which lots sell and which don't. I have learned a long time ago that the only important number at the end of the sale is to total dollars generated, as there will always be some lots that sell for more than I expected and some that sell for less. That part is the same in a regular auction sale. You will only drive yourself crazy if you worry about what each lot brings. Therefore, the total dollars generated is the best number to concentrate on.
One strange phenom I have seen in each of my 3 online sales, is that I have always sold a considerable number of additional embryos and flushes after the online sales have ended. In two of the three years, I have actually sold more dollars worth of embryos in the days folllowing the sales than I did in the sale itself. In my last sale held in Feb/11, my embryo sale grossed $38,000 and I sold another $42,000 of embryos within 3 days of it ending.The embryos sold after the sale went to several countires and included two sales to England and Scotland of over $15,000 each. When this is considered, I have to be very pleased with the results this form of marketing has provided.Within a hour of the end of a sale I held in 2010, I received a phone call from a guy who had not even bid during the sale, and he ended up buying over $16,000 in embryos and flushes... and these were at my prices and not at prices set during the online auctions. When I asked him why he had not bid in the online sale, he said he was not familiar with bidding online and he was concerned he would not be able to do it properly. I guess there are many reasons this has happened in my sales, but it remains a bit of a baffling situation. I guess there are still a considerable number of people who are not comfortable sitting at a computer to do their business.
In regards to getting your bid run, this can happen at a regular auction or in an online sale. Maybe I look at this differently than most do, as I always decide on which cattle I am interested in prior to the sale starting, and I also decide as to how high I am prepared to bid on each of them. There has only been an odd rare occasion where I have bid a bit higher than I have planned, but it is always very close to the number I have decided on. If I get the animal for what my maximum was, or for less, I don't get concerned if my bid was run or not. The way I look at it, if I had been standing with the owner in a pasture and I asked him what he wanted for an animal, and he gave me a price I was willing to pay, I would buy that animal. I don't look at live auctions or online auctions as being much different. If an animal sells for more than I was prepared to bid, I start looking for the next one I will bid on, and I know I have had a part in determining the selling price by my bidding it up to my maximum. But that is just the way I see it. I know many people who rant and rave about the fact that their bids may have been driven up by phantom bidders, and dwell on this for days and weeks on end. Personally, I have lots of more important things to spend my time worrying about. Like I said, if I get an animal purchased for less than I was prepared to go, I don't even consider if my bids were bumped upwards.
I have also seen people who look at this issue very differently. I have had a few people give me bids in sales, who have asked that I make sure the animals bring close to what their bid was. One example of this that I always think of, was a breeder giving me a sizable bid on a bull. He normally always purchased his own bulls. but was unable to attend this particular sale because of a death in his family. He called me and gave me his bid, and then asked if I thought the bull would sell for close to his bid. I reponded that it was an auctiion sale so most anything could happen. He then said, that he wanted to to make sure the bull sold somewheres close to the bid he had given me, as he felt his buying a lower priced herd bull would not be good for his reputation and would also affect the prices he could sell his offspring at. Different strokes for different folks I guess.....
I have held 3 online sales in recent years and have consigned to several others. In my case, almost all these have been embryo, pregnancies and flushes, which I think is a bit different that selling live cattle. My online sales themselves have had moderate successes, and they do offer me the opportunity to offer a wide selection of genetics, as there is no real increases in costs other than my time. I never expect that all the lots will sell in the online sale, but I also never have been able to determine before the sale, as to which ones will be sold. I am always a bit surprised as to which lots sell and which don't. I have learned a long time ago that the only important number at the end of the sale is to total dollars generated, as there will always be some lots that sell for more than I expected and some that sell for less. That part is the same in a regular auction sale. You will only drive yourself crazy if you worry about what each lot brings. Therefore, the total dollars generated is the best number to concentrate on.
One strange phenom I have seen in each of my 3 online sales, is that I have always sold a considerable number of additional embryos and flushes after the online sales have ended. In two of the three years, I have actually sold more dollars worth of embryos in the days folllowing the sales than I did in the sale itself. In my last sale held in Feb/11, my embryo sale grossed $38,000 and I sold another $42,000 of embryos within 3 days of it ending.The embryos sold after the sale went to several countires and included two sales to England and Scotland of over $15,000 each. When this is considered, I have to be very pleased with the results this form of marketing has provided.Within a hour of the end of a sale I held in 2010, I received a phone call from a guy who had not even bid during the sale, and he ended up buying over $16,000 in embryos and flushes... and these were at my prices and not at prices set during the online auctions. When I asked him why he had not bid in the online sale, he said he was not familiar with bidding online and he was concerned he would not be able to do it properly. I guess there are many reasons this has happened in my sales, but it remains a bit of a baffling situation. I guess there are still a considerable number of people who are not comfortable sitting at a computer to do their business.
In regards to getting your bid run, this can happen at a regular auction or in an online sale. Maybe I look at this differently than most do, as I always decide on which cattle I am interested in prior to the sale starting, and I also decide as to how high I am prepared to bid on each of them. There has only been an odd rare occasion where I have bid a bit higher than I have planned, but it is always very close to the number I have decided on. If I get the animal for what my maximum was, or for less, I don't get concerned if my bid was run or not. The way I look at it, if I had been standing with the owner in a pasture and I asked him what he wanted for an animal, and he gave me a price I was willing to pay, I would buy that animal. I don't look at live auctions or online auctions as being much different. If an animal sells for more than I was prepared to bid, I start looking for the next one I will bid on, and I know I have had a part in determining the selling price by my bidding it up to my maximum. But that is just the way I see it. I know many people who rant and rave about the fact that their bids may have been driven up by phantom bidders, and dwell on this for days and weeks on end. Personally, I have lots of more important things to spend my time worrying about. Like I said, if I get an animal purchased for less than I was prepared to go, I don't even consider if my bids were bumped upwards.
I have also seen people who look at this issue very differently. I have had a few people give me bids in sales, who have asked that I make sure the animals bring close to what their bid was. One example of this that I always think of, was a breeder giving me a sizable bid on a bull. He normally always purchased his own bulls. but was unable to attend this particular sale because of a death in his family. He called me and gave me his bid, and then asked if I thought the bull would sell for close to his bid. I reponded that it was an auctiion sale so most anything could happen. He then said, that he wanted to to make sure the bull sold somewheres close to the bid he had given me, as he felt his buying a lower priced herd bull would not be good for his reputation and would also affect the prices he could sell his offspring at. Different strokes for different folks I guess.....
forcheyhawk
Well-known member
- Joined
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- 315
chiangus said:
I think it's reasonable to expect a seller to protect what they have in an animal. You or I don't know how much that is. So, by fake account I'm going to assume that's the seller protecting his investment. I'm going to assume there's not some conspiracy here by a bunch of internet hackers to mess with online cow sales. That said, I still think if you were willing to pay 5K and you got the animal for 4K you have to be happy. The seller could have just as easily been stuck trying to find another bidder if you quit bidding. In running you up, I have to assume either he felt you would definitely go to 4K or he felt he had enough in it that he couldn't take less. If it's the 1st reason, you have to ask yourself what you did to make him think you'd pay 4K and change that behavior. If it's the latter, I have no issues with that at all because there again you could have stopped bidding at 2K for all he knew and he'd have been stuck.
LLBUX
Well-known member
Oftentimes a seller will have a reserve on an animal and will not let it go for less than that amount.
I feel he has that right to protect his investment. I see nothing dishonest about it.
I attended a sale last spring where the ringmen/sales consultant/auctioneer routinely ran up the price on the lots in an attempt to reach the seller's reserve. Many of the lots did not get a real bid, yet fell to the gavel.
Most of the folks you buy from online will be honest. They may have a silent reserve and have someone protect their steer/heifer up that reserve price. In the end, know your seller, select and animal you like and know what you are willing to spend. Stick to it.
I have some bids on BW right now. I know the owners, looked at the cattle this weekend, and have placed my maximum bid on them. One has already surpassed my limit so bye bye to him. The other will likely get passed up before the auction closes tomorrow night. I wish them luck.
I feel he has that right to protect his investment. I see nothing dishonest about it.
I attended a sale last spring where the ringmen/sales consultant/auctioneer routinely ran up the price on the lots in an attempt to reach the seller's reserve. Many of the lots did not get a real bid, yet fell to the gavel.
Most of the folks you buy from online will be honest. They may have a silent reserve and have someone protect their steer/heifer up that reserve price. In the end, know your seller, select and animal you like and know what you are willing to spend. Stick to it.
I have some bids on BW right now. I know the owners, looked at the cattle this weekend, and have placed my maximum bid on them. One has already surpassed my limit so bye bye to him. The other will likely get passed up before the auction closes tomorrow night. I wish them luck.
chiangus said:
Over paid?!?!?!?! If you didn't feel the calf was worth 4000 then why would you bid it? No one twisted the bidders arm to bid. If you budgeted 5000 and you felt this calf was worth that than you didn't overpay. The seller doesn't know you have 5000 budgeted....
twistedhshowstock
Well-known member
I think for the most part its fairly honest. You always have the "silent" bidders out there running up bids. Sometimes its to protect the investment of the seller, but I have also encountered people who do it just for the heck of doing it. Like they have $3500 to spend and someone outbids them at $3600 so they keep bidding just run the price up since they are mad. I always love it when those people get stuck with the bid in the end. Haha. We had a business partner in the buckin stock side of things a few years ago. Well not really a partner, some guy we knew went about a truck load of mostly worn out bulls and couldnt keep em in fences he refused to fix. We let him run em on our place and we used em at our events. Well after a couple of yrs of him not paying feed bills and us fixing fence behind one that you couldnt keep in anything with no help from him we had a falling out and hauled em all to sale barn. He knew there were a couple that we wanted to buy back and planned to bid em up on us and drop em on us high. He slipped up and let us find out so we had a friend of ours buy em for us, we never bid so he didnt know to bid against us. The guy we had bidding for us was a really respected order buyer in the area so no one bid against him and we got all 3 we wanted back at market value. There was one that that guy wanted back and we bid him up to about 3 times what the bull was worth and dropped it on him. And the people at the sale barn knew the situation and knew that he would never pay us the part of the sale price that was agreed on so they wrote us the check minus what we owed for the 3 bulls we bought, we left with the bulls we wanted and a check for about $2500, the guy that owned the bulls not only didnt get a check, he wrote a check for $500 to take home a bull he already owned, lol. But he was laughing cause he didnt think we got the bulls we wanted, he stopped and cried a few weeks later when he drove by our place and saw the bulls in the pasture. I know that was mean, but he had screwed us over one to many times when we bent over backwards to help him.
The other thing that I think you have to keep in mind is that some of those calves that get bid to $30k and $40k or higher, that much money doesnt always change hands. I think we have all heard the stories of the buyers who set a price to someone at like $10k or so and then have the person bid way higher than that, but never actually expect them to pay more than the $10k previously agreed on. Then the next yr all you hear about in that sellers sale is all the calves that are flushmates, full sibs, maternal sibs to the $50k calf in the last yrs sale.
The other thing that I think you have to keep in mind is that some of those calves that get bid to $30k and $40k or higher, that much money doesnt always change hands. I think we have all heard the stories of the buyers who set a price to someone at like $10k or so and then have the person bid way higher than that, but never actually expect them to pay more than the $10k previously agreed on. Then the next yr all you hear about in that sellers sale is all the calves that are flushmates, full sibs, maternal sibs to the $50k calf in the last yrs sale.
twistedhshowstock
Well-known member
Another thing I always tell people I am helping, and its been said here before, never bid more than a calf is worth. Heifers especially, to me a heifer regardless of if she is a show prospect or not is worth no more as a calf than she has potential to be worth as a cow. I had a breeder the other day try to tell me that a heifer was never worth as much when she finished her show career as when she was bought as a prospect. I dont know how everyone elses economics work, but for me if I pay $5K for one as a prospect, then unless something goes horribly wrong she dang well better be at least a $5K cow when I get done showing her.
Example Little Jane Doe and little Susy Johnson both fall in love with heifer lot 1 cause she is "pretty" well both Jane and Susie's parents give their child everything they want and end up in a bidding war, before you know it Lot 1 has sold for $20K when realistically she was only a $5K heifer. This is a prime example of getting caught up in a bidding war and forgetting the calves value. Personally I think I have seen a lot of $5K and cheaper calves in online sales lately that were far higher quality than some of the calves selling for over $10k, but those lower quality calves selling high were really cool colored so I am sure some kid got attached to them.
And just because you go in with a budget of $5K doesnt mean you need to spend that much, as was said before even if you got the calf at $4K and it was under your budget by a $1K, you still messed up if it was only at $2500 calf. I have a family I help with pigs that have decided they really want to make a run at winning their county show this year. They asked me to find them a hog and told me I had $1600 to spend. They seem offended when I tell them there is no way I am spending that kind of money to try and win this county show. If they spend more than $500 they are spending to much in this county because frankly it isnt very tough at all and their sale isnt that good.
Example Little Jane Doe and little Susy Johnson both fall in love with heifer lot 1 cause she is "pretty" well both Jane and Susie's parents give their child everything they want and end up in a bidding war, before you know it Lot 1 has sold for $20K when realistically she was only a $5K heifer. This is a prime example of getting caught up in a bidding war and forgetting the calves value. Personally I think I have seen a lot of $5K and cheaper calves in online sales lately that were far higher quality than some of the calves selling for over $10k, but those lower quality calves selling high were really cool colored so I am sure some kid got attached to them.
And just because you go in with a budget of $5K doesnt mean you need to spend that much, as was said before even if you got the calf at $4K and it was under your budget by a $1K, you still messed up if it was only at $2500 calf. I have a family I help with pigs that have decided they really want to make a run at winning their county show this year. They asked me to find them a hog and told me I had $1600 to spend. They seem offended when I tell them there is no way I am spending that kind of money to try and win this county show. If they spend more than $500 they are spending to much in this county because frankly it isnt very tough at all and their sale isnt that good.
Justintime made many excellent points that I totally agree with. If I'm buying and I think something fishy is going on, I quit bidding.. if I'm selling I have a floor and I see that my calves get there or I take them home.
Reading Justintimes post though, another thought crossed my mind. In the case of selling embryo's or semen, there's most likely more to be had. What if someone intentionally doesn't bid on the auction, to keep the price lower... because they figure the chances are good they can buy the same thing, after the auction, for the same price. Just a thought.............
Reading Justintimes post though, another thought crossed my mind. In the case of selling embryo's or semen, there's most likely more to be had. What if someone intentionally doesn't bid on the auction, to keep the price lower... because they figure the chances are good they can buy the same thing, after the auction, for the same price. Just a thought.............
simmyman67
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Exactly...if you think something fishy is going on just quit...
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