Online Auctions - "The Fine Print"

[jason]

My hats off to those of you who can set your ceiling and never deviate from it.  Guess I'm guilty of getting a little too caught up and will usually go a bid or two over my limit. lol

I would like to say that it's easy to let our imaginations run away with us when it comes to auctions.  I'm betting that most auctioneers are ethical and do NOT run bids up just to be doing it.  I have been to sales where a breeder has put a base on an animal and they will run the bid up to that base but no higher, I don't have a problem with that.  I would be more frustrated to bid on an animal only to hear "no sale" because it didn't bring enough.    It is also possible that they have phone in bids that they are bidding.

I am guilty of that too, always seems like one more bid to win it.

 

[jason]

Appreciate the comments, the best part of the Steer Planet auction system is I can constantly improve to give the best possible user experience for seller and buyer.  From our first auction the the fifth, I made a ton of changes as people gave me feedback on what they liked and didn't like. 

If I need to change on how we do reserve prices to fit what the market demands, we will do it, however I can promise you that everything will be done so a honest and fair transaction takes place between buyer and seller.  Full disclosure. 

 

[jinman76]

Does anyone else ever feel that when they put in their "Max" bid the auction always gets ran up to at least that bid?  It seems that most of the time when i use the max bid feature someone is watching in the background a runs me up to max me out.  I have stopped using that feature for that reason.  Anyone else experience this?

 

[qbcattle]

What if u ran it like this:

Started everything at the same low min value say 1000 but the seller wanted to set a reserve on lot 1 for 2000. So instead of the house running him there, and instead of the buyer getting bugged with reserve not met and then jumping up his bid. What if u informed just those that have put a bid in on that lot as to what the reserve is. ....

So lot 1 starts at 1000 and has a reserve at 2000 that no buyers know about. Then chambero bids to 1100, rackranch bids to 1200, and Jason bids to 1300.....well instead of jumping them to 2000 if they have a proxy of that or running them with bids by the house, why not inform chambero, rackranch, and Jason that they r in but the reserve is set at 2000. So they then know where they sit And can then decide if they want to bid at 2000, without getting ran there or automatically put there. Not all bidders get that information only those that have bid on the lot.

 

[jason]

What if u ran it like this:

Started everything at the same low min value say 1000 but the seller wanted to set a reserve on lot 1 for 2000. So instead of the house running him there, and instead of the buyer getting bugged with reserve not met and then jumping up his bid. What if u informed just those that have put a bid in on that lot as to what the reserve is. ....

So lot 1 starts at 1000 and has a reserve at 2000 that no buyers know about. Then chambero bids to 1100, rackranch bids to 1200, and Jason bids to 1300.....well instead of jumping them to 2000 if they have a proxy of that or running them with bids by the house, why not inform chambero, rackranch, and Jason that they r in but the reserve is set at 2000. So they then know where they sit And can then decide if they want to bid at 2000, without getting ran there or automatically put there. Not all bidders get that information only those that have bid on the lot.

The only tough part would be keeping everyone informed when their multiple lots.  It will automatically send out outbid notices, but I don't know if I can program that kind of logic is to the system.

It does give me few other ideas of basically turning the software into a bidder, however it will have a designated bidder id that will be fully disclosed. 

So bid starts out at $1000, seller needs $2000 to sell.  Bidder A bids $1500.00,  Bidder B (software) bids next bid increment, $1600.00,  Bidder A Bids, $2200, Bidder B (software) does NOT bid as seller made their reserve.

However, 2 things would have to happen, I would fully disclose the software bidding #, the "reserve amount" would still be programmed in so that there can't be a case of running a buyer.  A disclosure would be on the auction page and each individual lot explaining the process and basically how the system acts identically to a reserve, the system will NOT bid over the reserve amount, and the bidding # and bid history is fully available to anyone.


Thoughts?

 

[qbcattle]

I may be wrong but isn't that how the online auctions r ran now? I have assumed that the house has a bidder number and they have a max bid set as the reserve and the computer just bids to that point.... I could be way off but I thought that is what was happening.

As for the software part I am definitely not ur guy on that deal but I would assume there would be a way it could be done. Wouldn't it be similar to the outbid notifications but just relaying different info??

 

[jason]

I may be wrong but isn't that how the online auctions r ran now? I have assumed that the house has a bidder number and they have a max bid set as the reserve and the computer just bids to that point.... I could be way off but I thought that is what was happening.

As for the software part I am definitely not ur guy on that deal but I would assume there would be a way it could be done. Wouldn't it be similar to the outbid notifications but just relaying different info??

Right now, they manually are bidding them up using a "reserve sheet" provided by seller.  I would conclude quite a few of initial bids are done by the auction company.

It gives the illusion of interested buyers.

I still think the auction company/seller should have no part in placing bids on an auction.  If the software was programmed in a way to bid up to the reserve and the bidding # was disclosed and the reason why it was done, it would get closer to what I would believe is a fair playing field for seller/buyer.  It still seems a little foreign to me, their is a reason why the term "reserve" exists.  It is meant to protect the seller and let the buyer know where they stand.

 

[rmbcows]

I think you're trying to hard.  Even if you do it that way, there's nothing stopping someone from getting someone else, or even making themself another "bidder" and running the bid up that way.  Just promise you'll run your auction as fairly as possible and I would be happy with that.  Would I expect someone to try to take advantage of you?  Yup.  Would I blame you for running a crooked auction?  Absolutely not.  You'll never ever please everyone, and you'll lose your sanity trying.  Just my two cents.  lol

 

[DLD]

I think you're trying to hard.  Even if you do it that way, there's nothing stopping someone from getting someone else, or even making themself another "bidder" and running the bid up that way.  Just promise you'll run your auction as fairly as possible and I would be happy with that.  Would I expect someone to try to take advantage of you?  Yup.  Would I blame you for running a crooked auction?  Absolutely not.  You'll never ever please everyone, and you'll lose your sanity trying.  Just my two cents.  lol

I'm with rmb on this one.  Nothing you can do to completely prevent it.  You could create a reserve bidder, or just say reserve not met 'til it is (like Ebay), but ultimately people are gonna do what they're gonna do.  I think often sellers will change their minds about their minimums after the bidding starts - sometimes wanting them higher, sometimes lower, so a lot of them won't want to commit to sticking with a plan made before the sale. 

 

[J2F]

(clapping) First off I would like to commend you Jason on thinking outside the box and not excepting "this is the way it has always been". I HATE WHEN SOMEONE TELLS ME THAT.

Now a few questions for everyone

If Jason did make changes to make his auction site more transparent to all, then what?
as a seller would you sell here or go to another auction site?
as a buyer would you buy here feeling you are getting a fair shake?

I like the discussion but are the correct questions being asked? What is the since of having a free, transparent auction site if as the seller feel they can get more money out of other sites that play in the gray area for them. The customers would have to flock to your auctions and support it to convince the "sellers" that more transparency means more money. You can have the greatest company in the world but if it cost you more money to have the top professionals on your staff to make it the best then what the people are willing to pay for that service then you will go out of business pretty quick.  How many people are willing to pay for a stainless steel outhouse with a 14 k gold seat inside it? If you do figure out "how to do it" is there a viable market for it after it is complete?

 

[RyanChandler]

Do away with the reserve all together or have it placed with the animal.  Software bidding is fraudulent. Creating illusions is fraudulent.  Pay auctioneers a set price. Take away the incentive to be fraudulent that a commission type pay encourages. 

Sellers will follow the buyers.

 

[chappy]

I'm with jinman76 it seems everytime you go to one of these sites and use the max bid method no matter what you always get run to your max bid. I have had it happen to myself many times and I am OK with that as I placed that max bid and that's what I thought and felt it was was worth. To many factors involved to really list but i can say this they know who is bidding and who is not. So if you have deep pockets and people know you will spend it best to have someone else bid for you otherwise you will get run on calves. its the same in all forms of auctions.

 

[jason]

Appreciate all the comments.  Let me respond directly with quotes.

 

[jason]

I think you're trying to hard.  Even if you do it that way, there's nothing stopping someone from getting someone else, or even making themself another "bidder" and running the bid up that way.  Just promise you'll run your auction as fairly as possible and I would be happy with that.  Would I expect someone to try to take advantage of you?  Yup.  Would I blame you for running a crooked auction?  Absolutely not.  You'll never ever please everyone, and you'll lose your sanity trying.  Just my two cents.  lol

I'm with rmb on this one.  Nothing you can do to completely prevent it.  You could create a reserve bidder, or just say reserve not met 'til it is (like Ebay), but ultimately people are gonna do what they're gonna do.  I think often sellers will change their minds about their minimums after the bidding starts - sometimes wanting them higher, sometimes lower, so a lot of them won't want to commit to sticking with a plan made before the sale.

I think you are both correct.  I do have a tendency to try to make one solution that is going to fit everyone's needs.  When I just need to realize that doing it this way may not work for everyone.

Steer Planet itself was started on the same idea.  Lets have a free site where people can come and discuss cattle and give them every opportunity to be able to sell their cattle for free.  I got a ton of help from some great people and continue to do so.  I can't entice everyone to post, but the actual # of people that visit the site has almost doubled every single year.  (from 2011 to 2012 just a slight increase). 

You ever want to make my day, just send me a success story about the cattle you sold in the classifieds.  That is what is all about, people helping other people out.

 

[jason]

(clapping) First off I would like to commend you Jason on thinking outside the box and not excepting "this is the way it has always been". I HATE WHEN SOMEONE TELLS ME THAT.

Now a few questions for everyone

If Jason did make changes to make his auction site more transparent to all, then what?
as a seller would you sell here or go to another auction site?
as a buyer would you buy here feeling you are getting a fair shake?

I like the discussion but are the correct questions being asked? What is the since of having a free, transparent auction site if as the seller feel they can get more money out of other sites that play in the gray area for them. The customers would have to flock to your auctions and support it to convince the "sellers" that more transparency means more money. You can have the greatest company in the world but if it cost you more money to have the top professionals on your staff to make it the best then what the people are willing to pay for that service then you will go out of business pretty quick.  How many people are willing to pay for a stainless steel outhouse with a 14 k gold seat inside it? If you do figure out "how to do it" is there a viable market for it after it is complete?

There is a balance out there, the balance where the buyer feels the auction was presented honestly and seller feels that they got top dollar available. 


One huge differentiator is price.  I am substantially cheaper, and were not talking 10% to 15%, more like 80% cheaper. 

I running my own software, I get a deal on hosting because of I am already paying quite a bit for the rest of the site, I do all the coding work myself, all the design work myself, and generally just want people to get a great deal.

 

[jason]

I'm with jinman76 it seems everytime you go to one of these sites and use the max bid method no matter what you always get run to your max bid. I have had it happen to myself many times and I am OK with that as I placed that max bid and that's what I thought and felt it was was worth. To many factors involved to really list but i can say this they know who is bidding and who is not. So if you have deep pockets and people know you will spend it best to have someone else bid for you otherwise you will get run on calves. its the same in all forms of auctions.

I have it locked where no one, even me, could see a max bid without actually looking in the database tables.  I am not sure about maxanet, I would think the info would not be available, but again I am really not sure.

 

[jason]

Do away with the reserve all together or have it placed with the animal.  Software bidding is fraudulent. Creating illusions is fraudulent.  Pay auctioneers a set price. Take away the incentive to be fraudulent that a commission type pay encourages. 

Sellers will follow the buyers.

That is kinda where I am at, I just charge a set price.  Currently it is $25 per lot.

 

[DLD]

I have it locked where no one, even me, could see a max bid without actually looking in the database tables.  I am not sure about maxanet, I would think the info would not be available, but again I am really not sure.

I actually have some faith in the max bid system.  I didn't to begin with, but I do know of several instances where cattle have been bought below the max bid the buyer entered.  Without it, I don't trust the speed of my computer and/or my isp to get my final bid in on time - I've tried one bid at a time, and more than once found myself losing out right when the auction closes.

I don't doubt though that some sellers use it to set their reserve.  This may be where a lot of the frustration stems from if the starting bid is say $1500 and the seller sets in their own max bid of say $7500.  It brings into question both the starting bid and the max bid system in the minds of bidders.

 

[rmbcows]

Jason it sounds like you are being more than fair.  I personally think $25 is probably not enough to deal with all you'll be dealing with putting this on.  I admire you greatly for starting this website as a free site, and even more having it remain that way.  Most people start off free until they get traffic coming through, and then POW... you gotta pay.  My hats off to you!    (clapping)

I guess the question is still how to handle the reserves...  as someone who uses online auctions, including e-bay.. is it possible to give the seller the option of putting the reserve price out there, or just leaving it as a "reserve not met" situation?  This is how it's done on e-bay. 

 

[ferkj]

I'm with jinman76 it seems everytime you go to one of these sites and use the max bid method no matter what you always get run to your max bid. I have had it happen to myself many times and I am OK with that as I placed that max bid and that's what I thought and felt it was was worth. To many factors involved to really list but i can say this they know who is bidding and who is not. So if you have deep pockets and people know you will spend it best to have someone else bid for you otherwise you will get run on calves. its the same in all forms of auctions.

I've found it goes both ways.  Bought a few 3 weeks ago and none went to max bid weren't really close.  Then I've had them hit max or just a bid below. Also been times when it went way over so someone else was bidding or had a higher one than mine.  It's a chance you take.