Opinions on the 5-day CO-Synch + CIDR program

[ejoe326]

We do not see the strength of heats with Lutalyse. More importantly a few years ago we tried them side by side and the Estrumate cows settled better.  I can't remember the percentages but it was enough for me.

I haven't googled it yet but do you have the information on the study? 

 

[nativeman]

Cant believe after the winter we have all had that I am getting ready to sync. cattle but think I will try 5 day, I have always done just gnrh and 7 day later lut.with mixed results.will trust u guys.Will do anything that has calved 45 plus days.If take that should be calves say MIDDLE OF JANUARY.We must all be die hard cattle guys/gals.

 

[Davidsonranch]

ai er, do you give everything a 2cc shot of GnRh at time of AI, both the natural heats and the ones that go the full 72?  Last year I gave everything the 2cc shot of GnRh both ones I saw come in heat and the ones I just bred between 66-72 hours. Am I just wasting it on the ones I actually see in standing heat?
As a working man, consumed by kids activities, sports, etc.  I like the idea of the 5.5 day mentioned above.  CIDR's on a Sat.  Pull them on a Thurs night and breed most likely on the weekend if I read it right.

 

[ai er]

ai er, do you give everything a 2cc shot of GnRh at time of AI, both the natural heats and the ones that go the full 72?  Last year I gave everything the 2cc shot of GnRh both ones I saw come in heat and the ones I just bred between 66-72 hours. Am I just wasting it on the ones I actually see in standing heat?
As a working man, consumed by kids activities, sports, etc.  I like the idea of the 5.5 day mentioned above.  CIDR's on a Sat.  Pull them on a Thurs night and breed most likely on the weekend if I read it right.

Dr. Mike Day, reproductive physiologist at Ohio State has done lots of research with this method. He was the one who told me about it. He said that giving the 10 ml dose of prostaglandin was not statistically different than the two separate injections. Now back to your question. I posed the same question to him about the GnRH. He said if I saw a good standing heat, I could probably skip the GnRH injection at breeding. He said it won't hurt to give it, but can save  you a little money.  I go by the "if in doubt, give it" method.  The GnRH will force an ovulation.

 

[hntwhitetail]

Wow, lots of good information.  Thanks guys!  <rock>  Now I'm wondering what is everyone's cost per cow not including the semen for the 5.5 day protocol.  Thanks again in advance.

 

[pweaver]

I have tried different protocols and can't really say one is noticeably better than another.  But maybe I don't give them enough chances or repetitions.  From what I am hearing, I think this is going to my protocol this year:
Saturday a.m. - GnRH and CIDR
Thursday p.m. - Remove CIDR, 4 cc Estrumate
Breed on standing heat or 72 hrs. after removing CIDR w/ GnRH at each breeding.
I have taken a little bit from several protocols.  So how does it sound?  Has anyone incorporated a shot of Lute or Estrumate 3 days before CIDR implant?
What about giving a shot of Lute a month or so before scheduled breeding, maybe when vaccinating and deworming, to get the uterus cleaned up and everything started?  I have always wondered if jumping in and using any of the CIDR protocols was trying to get cows bred when they weren't cycling yet.  Like trying to breed on a first cycle non-fertile heat.

 

[Davidsonranch]

Yes, thanks everyone for the great info.  I'm going for it this year. 
This will be my plan (to help with my work schedule)

NOTE:  I FIXED THE DOSES PER MY ORIGINAL POST!

Saturday morning put in CIDRS and 2cc of Cystorellin (GnRh)
Thursday evening pull CIDRS and 4cc of Estrumate (Pg) Maybe 2cc's in two locations
Watch for standing heat Friday-Sunday and breed accordingly (am/pm rule)
If no heat noticed will breed everything else between 66-72 hours (Sunday afternoon)
Will also give 2cc of Cystorellin (GnRh) at time of AI

 

[ai er]

Yes, thanks everyone for the great info.  I'm going for it this year. 
This will be my plan (to help with my work schedule)

Saturday morning put in CIDRS and 2cc of Cystorellin (GnRh)
Thursday evening pull CIDRS and 10cc of Estrumate (Pg)
Watch for standing heat Friday-Sunday and breed accordingly (am/pm rule)
If no heat noticed will breed everything else between 66-72 hours (Sunday afternoon)
Will also give 2cc of Cystorellin (GnRh) at time of AI

Estrumate's normal dosage is 2 cc, I think.  If it is, you only want 4 cc.

 

[Davidsonranch]

Thanks I will check.  I was just assuming it was the same as Lute. 

 

[bigby535]

Estrumate box says 2ml IM.  Lutalyse insert says 5ml IM.

 

[DakotaCow]

The key to any program is the attention to detail. Keep CIDRs as clean as possible going in, use 1.5 inch needle for GnRH. Switch needles when they get dull. Also keep your GnRH cold, I have seen places that have a cooler for beer and neglect the hundreds of dollars worth of drugs. Yes the multi dose syringes are handy but at what cost? We have gone to using single dose lure locks for our hormones. Hint, theres 11 doses in a 10 dose bottle usually as its adjusted for a certain margin of error and I can load 5 syringes and hit cows in the alley. As with many things slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

 

[Davidsonranch]

Thanks everyone for the heads up on the doses for Estrumate vs. Lute.  I might have screwed that up. 

 

[nativeman]

Just bred four cows on five day program.Two had patches off at the five day mark when pulled cidr,put new on cause didn't know what that was about. when bred at 70 hours all cows had get feel heat with one cow in heat heavily previous night,two not showing no heat and one coming in,bred all with GNRH shot.will do some more next weekend so ill update in 283 days.Still cant believe im breeding for calving in February again after this past winter.

 

[cpubarn]

My calculator says your breeding for January, but Good luck anyway!

 

[Deleted member 20265]

Just bred four cows on five day program.Two had patches off at the five day mark when pulled cidr,put new on cause didn't know what that was about. when bred at 70 hours all cows had get feel heat with one cow in heat heavily previous night,two not showing no heat and one coming in,bred all with GNRH shot.will do some more next weekend so ill update in 283 days.Still cant believe im breeding for calving in February again after this past winter.

I bred some Saturday and they are due January 19, 2015. Next group will be AI'd for February 2, 2015 calves. Decided to breed three separate groups of cows this year so that we have 'insurance' .If group 1 calves in a blizzard its better than having all of them in a blizzard.... Two groups of about 8 cows and 1 group of 13 heifers.

 

[pweaver]

Used the 5 1/2 day this past week like I had planned and here are the results.  Pulled Cidr's with 4 cc. Estrumate Thurs. evening on five cows.  Nothing till Sun. at 2 p.m. (about 66 hours post Cidr) with one cow standing in pretty hot heat.  We TAI Sun. eve. about 7 (72 hrs. post Cidr) two cows that were showing nothing at all and two others that were wanting to mount but neither stood.  And we watched till dark plus had patches on them.  This morning, Mon. at 7, we bred the one in heat Sun. p.m. and rebred the two showing some activity.  My wife is our AI tech and she said four of them felt good with the fifth a hard breed, but she always is.  Crooked cervix.  Does this scenario sound like the norm?  Anything you would have done different?

 

[hntwhitetail]

So.. what is everyone's thoughts 1 year later?  I'll be setting up some heifers and cows in the upcoming weeks for a few people. 

 

[cowpoke1977]

We wanted to set up some cows for this protocol on Saturday. One of them got in with the herd bull and got bred about 3 weeks ago. Should I give her a shot of Lute tommorow before we put CIDR in Saturday?

 

[shortybreeder]

We wanted to set up some cows for this protocol on Saturday. One of them got in with the herd bull and got bred about 3 weeks ago. Should I give her a shot of Lute tommorow before we put CIDR in Saturday?

You're going to need more then 48 hours between the Lut and CIDR. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but here's the general idea behind how the products work: the female develops a CL every 3 weeks. It goes through its growth cycle, and when she isn't pregnant she goes through Estrus ~3 days after the CL "matures." If she becomes pregnant, she maintains the CL (but now it has a different name that escapes me). The idea behind a CIDR is that it provides the hormone (prostaglandin F-2alpha) which mimics pregnancy and maintains the CL in the state just before estrus would occur. By hitting the pause button, you can synchronize a group of heifers at different phases because they will still develop their follicles to that point without going further. The Lutalyse causes the CL to lyse (think of a pimple popping), and then a non-pregnant female will be in estrus 3 days later ready to breed--or it will terminate the pregnancy that was being maintained.

Now for why your plan won't work: if you Lut her 2 days before the CIDR goes in, you'll have 2 things working against you. The less likely--maybe the Lut isn't active enough and the CIDR presents PGF2A which maintains the pregnancy anyways (unlikely but possible). Or, the most likely, she will be at the wrong point in her cycle for the CIDR to work. It will take her more than just the 5 days of the CIDR to develop a follicle that will be ready to be bred.

Now before anyone rips me apart on semantics, I'm sure some of the terminology (when it's a CL vs follicle) above isn't 100% on the mark because it's been a long while since I've researched this, but that's my best shot at conveying the general concepts.

 

[cowpoke1977]

Thank you for the reply. I thought that was the case. I might just leave her alone and see if she comes back in heat again. If she doesn’t, score one for the herd bull.