Pasture sales and disclosure of info (Lack thereof)

[Jill]

I agree and disagree, I think TH has a look, I don't think it is better or worse, but I do think it is a different hip rear end look, freakier or whatever you want to call it.  I do not and will never agree that PHA has any advantage whatsoever, there is no "look" and I don't think anyone can distinguish between the F and C.

 

[chambero]

It's hard to really refute the success of the Heat Seeker and Double Vision line of cattle at haired steer shows - and thus the rationale for the benefit of TH.  Until something knocks that line off the pedastal, the TH bulls will get used.  That's just the way it is.

I agree with the PHA, there really isn't a dominant bloodline that wins everything - and you see clean animals from the affected lines do their share of winning.  I think you'll see that one disappear faster.

Folks that are buying heifers at these sales have their emphasis on the showring (probably 90%) versus the pasture (10%).  Anyone in the business of buying breeding cattle I hope has enough sense not to shop for 90-120 day old animals.  On animals that young, plenty of things have time to go wrong besides just genetic defects.

I wish that every animal would be tested, but its logistically impossible especially for calves that young.  I think to a certain extent that is an unrealistic expectation for both the amount of time and money involved.  If everyone did it I doubt the lab could handle the workload.

Despite the impression given, not everyone selling show calves is making dump trucks full of money off of it.  Testing one calf might not be a big deal time and money wise, but testing a whole large herd is.  This thing is going to take a little time to work itself out.  I don't think folks should be lumped into the dishonest category just because they don't have their calves tested.  We don't touch our calves from the time they are born until we get their mommas up to rebreed.  I bet many of the calves in these pasture sales aren't treated that much differently.  You just don't have time to handle them in a large herd that much.

Everyone will be ok on this thing in the long run as long as the info continues to be published on bulls.  I think in the next year or two you won't see many new positive bulls for either defect promoted. 

 

[DL]

I am well aware that the TH gene deals also with the structure of the leg and probably hair and that we as humans selected for this look so we can win in the show ring (breeding cattle be darned - who cares if the heifers are carriers - they are only show cattle) -  yeah there is a look, but is it what we really want to promote - hairy little critters that can't walk and if females have the potential to propagate a lethal genetic defect??? Humans created this mess, now we need to fix it.

 

[knabe]

just for fun, the limiting factor as far as a lab setup goes, is probably handling all the samples as they come in the lab and keeping track of them, not actually processing them.  producer A has 1 sample, producer B has 37, producer C has 1240 and so on.  labs are set up to do things in increments of 8, 12, 24, 96, 384.  with automation, it's relatively easy to process the samples, even if they are run on agarose gels as TH and PHA are.  believe me, they are doing it cheaply for the non lab portion of work they have to do, not to mention the cost of finding the defect.  could they do it cheaper?  sure, but the best way to make it cheaper is if you use carrier genetics and feel they have a merit, convert them to free status in a couple of generations.  then the test won't be needed any more unless someone is interested in the odd cross of using older genetics.  then the test will be a sort of novelty, yeah in the dark ages TH and PHA was a problem, now we only have to deal with arthritis, mealy feet, monkey mouth, the many sources of dwarfism etc.  what's great is that the means to finding these genes is getting easier, and even easier if the parentage is correct.

as far as PHA genetics goes, is there a bull with the spring of rib of ice pick?

 

[itk]

I have no problem with people selling these animals untested as long as all potential buyers are aware that there is a possibility of a defect and are told to bid accordingly. The profit margin on alot of calves is not very much. By the time the breeder pays for cidrs, semen, dehorning, registration papers and numerous other expenses that come along the profit margin can get kind of tight if you add on testing for TH and PHA. What would help is if sexed semen on the popular steer sires was readily available and economically priced. That way people could us carrier sires to get those top end steers and not have to worry about propagating carrier females.

 

[Jill]

You know that would be really nice.  I would prefer to never have a Heat Wave heifer, but I will continue to breed for Heat Wave steers as long as the market for them is so huge.  They are predictable and consistant and if I could have all steers that would be wonderful.

 

[knabe]

i've linked this before, but check this out again.

http://ari.calstate.edu/research/index.aspx?Transform=Details&ProjectNumber=06-3-004

don't know the status of this research, but it should theorhetically be possible to test for sex, PHA, TH, color, horned/polled etc in one reaction.  folks, this is doable in the forseable future.  other research testing for just sex is somewhat routine.

 

[SKF]

This weekend we bought 2 heifers from a sale in Ohio and the calves were tested for both TH and PHA  and they were up front with the results. I feel that if you are selling calves and they are not tested the seller needs to let the buyer know up front that there is a possiablity of the calf being a carrier because not every kid out there knows what TH and PHA are.We have some local people that prey on kids that are new to this and will tell them anything and sell them the biggest piece of junk and when we first started we fell for it. After that I learned my lesson and  did my researc. On the other hand the buyer needs to do their research and ask questions before buying a calf. There's plenty of good calves out there that have been tested before being sold.

 

[Telos]

Knabe, your question with regards to BK Ice Pick's spring of rib and PHA carriers is a very interesting question. Perhaps a question best answered from those veteran breeders who have used these genetics and are in a better position of being objective.

I do think it would be honorable, especially at this point in time, if those breeders who experimented with PHA genetics (at that time , unknowingly) could share their knowledge from observations regarding phenotype with the rest of us who have an invested interest.

 

[DL]

Knabe, your question with regards to BK Ice Pick's spring of rib and PHA carriers is a very interesting question. Perhaps a question best answered from those veteran breeders who have used these genetics and are in a better position of being objective.

I do think it would be honorable, especially at this point in time, if those breeders who experimented with PHA genetics (at that time , unknowingly) could share their knowledge from observations regarding phenotype with the rest of us who have an invested interest.

Oh Telos - you are such an idealist -maybe you could round up a group to share their knowledge in a public forum

ITK - great idea about the sexed semen - but I do disagree with you regarding the cost of testing - it is simply the cost of doing business honestly - telling some kid that her heifer may be a carrier is a gratuitous way of making the seller feel better and provides nothing to the buyer - IMHO (designed to further drop my falling karma) if you can't afford to test breeding females from carrier stock you really shouldn't be selling them.....

 

[DLD]

It's hard to really refute the success of the Heat Seeker and Double Vision line of cattle at haired steer shows - and thus the rationale for the benefit of TH.  Until something knocks that line off the pedastal, the TH bulls will get used.  That's just the way it is.

I agree with the PHA, there really isn't a dominant bloodline that wins everything - and you see clean animals from the affected lines do their share of winning.  I think you'll see that one disappear faster.

Folks that are buying heifers at these sales have their emphasis on the showring (probably 90%) versus the pasture (10%).  Anyone in the business of buying breeding cattle I hope has enough sense not to shop for 90-120 day old animals.  On animals that young, plenty of things have time to go wrong besides just genetic defects.

I wish that every animal would be tested, but its logistically impossible especially for calves that young.  I think to a certain extent that is an unrealistic expectation for both the amount of time and money involved.  If everyone did it I doubt the lab could handle the workload.

Despite the impression given, not everyone selling show calves is making dump trucks full of money off of it.  Testing one calf might not be a big deal time and money wise, but testing a whole large herd is.  This thing is going to take a little time to work itself out.  I don't think folks should be lumped into the dishonest category just because they don't have their calves tested.  We don't touch our calves from the time they are born until we get their mommas up to rebreed.  I bet many of the calves in these pasture sales aren't treated that much differently.  You just don't have time to handle them in a large herd that much.

Everyone will be ok on this thing in the long run as long as the info continues to be published on bulls.  I think in the next year or two you won't see many new positive bulls for either defect promoted. 

Once again, I think on just what I want to say about something long enough that I don't have to type it myself, I'll just say I second what Chambero (and Jill and ITK, et al...) have said. Ideally, I agree it'd be nice if every female was tested before it was offered for sale, but realistically, it's just not going to happen. Just getting the sellers to disclose the possibilities and trying to educate potential buyers is a more realistic goal, and even that's gonna take awhile to attain.

Most breeders that are in any degree conscientious about TH and PHA believe that the way out is not by eliminating carrier females, but by eliminating carrier bulls. I don't think anybody's going to argue against the need to test any and all bull calves that have any possibility of being carriers and eliminating any that are. (okay, some might argue against eliminating them all, but most will eventually agree it's necessary). Again, it's just a more realistic goal to do this with bulls than with females - I do realize that it's a much slower path to eliminating all carriers, but it will in time (when people quit using carrier bulls) eliminate affected calves...

 

[RSC]

just for fun, the limiting factor as far as a lab setup goes, is probably handling all the samples as they come in the lab and keeping track of them, not actually processing them.  producer A has 1 sample, producer B has 37, producer C has 1240 and so on.  labs are set up to do things in increments of 8, 12, 24, 96, 384.  with automation, it's relatively easy to process the samples, even if they are run on agarose gels as TH and PHA are.  believe me, they are doing it cheaply for the non lab portion of work they have to do, not to mention the cost of finding the defect.  could they do it cheaper?  sure, but the best way to make it cheaper is if you use carrier genetics and feel they have a merit, convert them to free status in a couple of generations.  then the test won't be needed any more unless someone is interested in the odd cross of using older genetics.  then the test will be a sort of novelty, yeah in the dark ages TH and PHA was a problem, now we only have to deal with arthritis, mealy feet, monkey mouth, the many sources of dwarfism etc.  what's great is that the means to finding these genes is getting easier, and even easier if the parentage is correct.

as far as PHA genetics goes, is there a bull with the spring of rib of ice pick?

INMHO,  Open Bar a grandson of Ice Pick but PHAF is throwing the spring of rib you might be looking for.  Last week at the NE State fair open feeder calf show,  Ohlrichs had champion feeder heifer with an Open Bar X Whiplash that had great spring of rib. 

RSC

 

[DLD]

Telos, I accidentally used a few PHA carriers along the way (namely Payback, Power Plus and our own NFL son) and in truth the only real similarity I can see is that none of those three seemed to throw particularly good hair, but I know that doesn't necessarily hold true with all carriers...

On second thought (edit), all of them were capable of throwing some white markings. I've wondered about the fact that every PHA calf I've seen, seen pictures of, or heard tell of had some white markings. Always figured it was just coincedence, though...

 

[Telos]

Telos, I accidentally used a few PHA carriers along the way (namely Payback, Power Plus and our own NFL son) and in truth the only real similarity I can see is that none of those three seemed to throw particularly good hair, but I know that doesn't necessarily hold true with all carriers...

On second thought (edit), all of them were capable of throwing some white markings. I've wondered about the fact that every PHA calf I've seen, seen pictures of, or heard tell of had some white markings. Always figured it was just coincedence, though...

DLD- Those three bulls (PB,PP and NFL)...You used for a reason. All three were capable of adding muscle. I also heard that those three bulls can make pretty good cows.

Stinger was sure capable of adding muscle to the Shorthorn breed. Maybe only when the PHA gene was transmitted. It is interesting to see some high profiling Shorthorns, primarily used for club calf production in which the PHA gene has been carried into the 4th and 5th generation.

Theobald 969 is sure an interesting Meyer's son out of a Stinger cow. Wonder if there is a difference between his carriers and the free offspring. Might make an interesting case study.

 

[DLD]

Telos, it's true that those are all considered to be heavy muscled bulls, but certainly no heavier than many free bulls. Without the extra muscle, those bulls would never have attained the popularity they have, so I'm just not sure that it's a deciding factor in PHA carriers. The fact that the PHA defect is not attached to any particular gene sequence, but is rather a change in the chemical makeup of the DNA leads me to believe that it's not directly related to any particular phenotypical trait.
I think the similarities are just coincidental to "show type" Maine or Maine influenced bulls that have the quality to have sold alot of semen. But again, it's just my opinion - that and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee (well, some places anyway...).

 

[knabe]

DLD, not sure what you mean by chemical composition of the DNA.  i think i remember barrelracer saying it wasn't a gene they were expecting, and since the test is a pcr amplification and then digestion, it's at least a single base pair change, so the DNA is changed.  whether it truncates a gene, eliminates a stop codon, or is a regulator element upstream or downstream of the gene, who knows until the paper comes out.  Genes can get used in many tissues obviously, and at different times during development. 

also want to clarify my observation on ice pick, it was the spring of rib and not necessarily the muscle i was asking about.  he's obviously heavily muscled, as is exclamation and he also has muscle, spring of rib and also PHA/TH free by the way.  both bulls seem to have that extra pop in their quarter, almost as if it's slightly double muscled due to the obvious definition in the fold of their muscle. 

it seems some older maine lines are plagued by slab sides.  that's why i posted the slaughter pic of my direct draft pick steer out of a direct midas cow which shows his slab side.  with RSC's comment about open bar, i guess PHA is not affecting that either.  man, i can't wait for that paper.

 

[DL]

Yes I agree that not using carrier bulls is the fastest way to eliminate the defects - not flushing carriers of either gender would help too - but I still think it is a bad deal to sell an untested heifer (esp to a kid) out of carrier parents....but I imagine it comes down to how well does your spring of rib let you sleep at night...

 

[itk]

ITK - great idea about the sexed semen - but I do disagree with you regarding the cost of testing - it is simply the cost of doing business honestly - telling some kid that her heifer may be a carrier is a gratuitous way of making the seller feel better and provides nothing to the buyer - IMHO (designed to further drop my falling karma) if you can't afford to test breeding females from carrier stock you really shouldn't be selling them.....[/color][/b]
[/quote]

I agree that in a perfect world everyone should test all potential carriers. However there are numerous heifers that sell for lets just say $1,200 and less. By the time a breeder puts all the fore mentioned expense into the calf and then adds another $70 to get TH and PHA tests done they would be just as well off taking the calf to the salebarn where nothing would get said about potential defects. The heifer could potentially get bought as a replacement and some poor farmer would get stuck with a carrier female and not have a clue. Atleast if a junior shower is told there might be a genetic issue they can bid and make future breeding decisions accordingly. This might be my narrow sighted view but I don't think many club calf breeders use carrier bulls to produce females. The carrier females are just a by-product of steer production. That is why I think the sexed semen would be a great idea. I don't know if it would ever get to an economical price for mass ai use but if it did I think there would be a drastic decline in the number of carrier females produced.

 

[DLD]

Knabe, I'm not gonna pretend that I know all there is to know about the genetic details. That's just what I understood from earlier explanations - maybe i misunderstood or there's been new information, but what I got out of it is that is not tied directly to any specific phenotypical trait like TH is.

DL, I agree 100% that anytime a potential carrier female sells, the information that she might be and the possible consequences of breeding her the wrong way need to be shared with any and all potential buyers. Anything less is just wrong, and it's certainly within any buyers right not to consider anything that's not tested. But none of that makes a seller that fully discloses all the information they have regarding the possibility of carrier status decietful or wrong, nor does it make anyone who buys a potential (or known) carrier female foolish or mis-guided. If a female isn't tested, and is of known carrier bloodlines and/or has unexplainable holes in her pedigree, then people who absolutely want no risk of owning a carrier need to stay away, but many people are willing to and capable of having them tested themselves and managing  them accordingly.

ITK, I agree that the sexed semen on the carrier bulls. especially the clubbie kind of bulls would be a good thing

 

[Show Heifer]

Wow, I leave for a few days and BAM....!!!!

I have read with interest others observations, and have called a few for their opinions (some of which I knew I wouldn't agree with, but wanted their logic). And so I add these comments:

If you are selling an animal as a replacement animal (bull or heifer) to ANYONE (let alone a junior) I think it should be tested. It is what I consider "the cost of business". If you are selling cheap possible carriers and can't afford the test, then maybe it should be sold as a terminal feed lot animal. 
The test would not "overwhelm" the lab....face it, not everyone uses carriers, so only half the calves would need to be tested...and half of those are steers, and everyone knows from about 30 days old which calves are going to be offered for sale, so from Feb to May...well, I don't see a logicstical problem there. Its called "planning ahead". A new concept to some I know.
Sexed semen is a good idea, if the price is right, and they only sell "STEER" semen. No bulls allowed. Is that possible?
Another thought that has NEVER come up in discussion: What about spaying the carrier females? Everyone is going on and on about "Well I can't control what they do with her after they buy her."  They spay heifers all the time out west. And from what I understand it is not the big of deal, nor is it expensive (at least the owners of the THOUSANDS of cattle that are put into the feedlot don't think so.). Wouldn't that eliminate a problem?
And about the comment about "taking them to the salebarn and having nothing mentioned about genetic defects and having some poor farmer buy her as a replacement...."  Gee, ya think those EXACT SAME PEOPLE that are dumping carriers at the salebarn are the EXACT SAME PEOPLE that are sticking to the buyers at the farm? I think so.

A final thought before my karma is zero: What is so hard about testing, or explaining the possibility of the animal being a carrier?  Makes me think those that are not wanting to disclose information are trying to sell carriers to unknowing folks, and are either having a hard time making a sale, or having a hard time sleeping at night.....and that my friends, make me smile.

And so my karma goes.....