Pelvic Measures and what it means. I want to learn as much as possible!

[frostback]

- this basically limits you to using Red Angus or Angus because the other breeds or cross bred do not have sufficient numbers to have high accuracy.

WOW are you working for the Angus Associations? I can think of numerous other Purebreds breeds that have EPDs with high accuracy to help in selecting calving ease bulls.

 

[DL]

Since high accuracy EPDs require large numbers, breeds with higher numbers, or in the case of RA long history of required performance data, are much more likely to have high accuracy low BE and high CE numbers. Also because of the high numbers they are more likely to have more choice - more bulls to choose from doesn't mean other breeds don't have a few or more than a few high accuracy low BW high CE bulls.

I use RA high accuracy CE and low BW bulls on my heifer because I like the size, growth, vigor and temperament - I don't use Angus bulls but high accuracy CE and low BW Angus bull are common and used by many with success. Clearly others use other breeds with success.

simtal provided 3 Simmie bulls that meet the that criteria - they are listed in the top bulls registered in 2006 on the ASA web page - why don't you try to educate us too Norma instead of continuously being snide?

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

DL - one of these days I'll send you some L21 semen to use on those heifers. RW

 

[frostback]

Was not trying to be snide, guess I forgot the winky face. And I have not be formally educated and dont have initials in front of my name so I am not qualified to teach. I will leave it up to you to do all that.

 

[DL]

Was not trying to be snide, guess I forgot the winky face. And I have not be formally educated and dont have initials in front of my name so I am not qualified to teach. I will leave it up to you to do all that.

Norma - we are all describing our experience - I am sure you have some to share. Tell me who you are thinking of when you say " I can think of numerous other Purebreds breeds that have EPDs with high accuracy to help in selecting calving ease bulls."

Interesting that there are probably hundreds of posts on SP about calving ease and using Angus or RA bulls but no where before has anyone taken it as anything but a suggestion based on experience

RW - that might be fun - what is the reg #? Am looking forward to my Hobo babies...

 

[Jill]

Most Angus and Red Angus have no butt and no bone and that would tend to make the BW a little lighter, we don't breed to them more because a sale barn calf to me is a wasted year, you don't have to breed to a cow killer, but you can make informed choices and get a calf you can be happy with.   I do pull some of our calves, but I don't want 60 pound calves, I prefer to breed to a little higher risk Maine and have a calf I have a chance of showing.  
The cows/heifers that in my opinion are going to have a problem and need to be pelvic measured are any of the market type heifers that were bred to be steers but you got a heifer and you just can't part with them, those are normally the type you are going to have calving problems on, at least that has been our experience.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Most Angus and Red Angus have no butt and no bone and that would tend to make the BW a little lighter, we don't breed to them more because a sale barn calf to me is a wasted year, you don't have to breed to a cow killer, but you can make informed choices and get a calf you can be happy with.   I do pull some of our calves, but I don't want 60 pound calves, I prefer to breed to a little higher risk Maine and have a calf I have a chance of showing.  
The cows/heifers that in my opinion are going to have a problem and need to be pelvic measured are any of the market type heifers that were bred to be steers but you got a heifer and you just can't part with them, those are normally the type you are going to have calving problems on, at least that has been our experience.

I'm afraid you may be dealing with the wrong RA breeders if you think that "most" don't have an hindquarter in them. Several years ago that was the case perhaps but not so much anymore unless you are dealing with some of the breeders that are still using 30 year old genetics. The last steer my daughter showed was a purebred RA steer and was either grand or reserve every place he was shown, beating several "clubby" bred steers that cost 2 - 5000 dollars. If you want to find the hatchet assed ones - look for the ones that they have stacked the carcass traits in - big carcass numbers= less muscle and structure. The cow in my avitar in a purebred RA cow and I can assure you she doesn't lack anything in the hind quarter department or anywhere else for that matter.

DL - PMed you the info. RW

 

[kanshow]

We've been using PB simmi bulls on heifers for years with no more than minimal issues..   There are a lot of bulls to choose from.    Do you need a list??   I thought the post was about pelvic measurement.    

We don't get overly concerned with the size of the calf, there is more concern over the shape of the calf as has already been mentioned.  

We used to do a lot more pelvic measuring on the heifers than we do now.  The reason is simple..  we have thrown out less than 1% of our current herd based on measurement.   It's been close to 20 years ago that we had problems,  at the time we were running a group of cattle that were high percentage Gelbvieh.   Even with a high CE, low BW Angus pelvic size was a big problem.  

 

[knabe]

is there a difference between facts and anecdotes?

 

[DL]

is there a difference between facts and anecdotes?

Depends on who you ask

guess you can't hijack a thread anymore - better find out who did that and punish them

picking bulls for heifers clearly depends on your goals for the calf and your tolerance for pulling calves - my RA sired heifers are good replacements not sale barn calves

 

[BIGTEX]

There are a lot of Great limousin sires that have great and accurate CE and BW EPD's. Limousins are smaller boned animals and have great growth rates. I have used Wulf's NASA with great resuls. JCL Lodestar is a great cure bending CE sire. There are many more. I also like the growth you get from a limousin as opposed to an angus. Same thing with Simmental. I have just had more experience with limousin.

 

[DL]

Not many Limmies in our area, but Show Heifer has had good luck with Limmie bulls. My half blood RA sired calves have consistently been the highest for WDA and ADG - I like the way they grow - have no experience with Angus

 

[aj]

Years ago we bought a red Maine bull. We used him on the Shorthorns. He threw some big calves. His sire ended up being a real big bwt deal in the Maine breed(like one star for calving ease. Anyway....we would keep back 15 heifer calves a year to make cow out of. We did this for 4 or 5 years. These females would have big calves. Their first calves were probably 60% pulls. We could have 110# calves out of these females the first year no matter what we bred them to. The ones that survived could then lay down and have a 120# calf unnassisted the following years. My point is that the daughters of the red Maine bull had huge pelvic measurements but they in turn had big calves. So this deal was all about the cow. I think you could breed these cows to a longhorn and still have 100# calves. We had 93# gizmo calves out of these girls on their first calves. I think DL is right about high accuracy low birth weight deals...cause.......if there are big bwts back in the bulls pedigree(even a couple generations back) you will get these huge birth weight calves once in a while. For me having a so called "throw away calf" on these type of cows would well be worth it in order to save the cow,save c-sections, and a irrate vet. But the big birth weight deal can float around in pedigrees for a long time. Thats why I like to see the 100# rule on bull bwts. You can get by with the big bwt bulls one time and it seems to work ok but the next go round gets tough. One reason I like the Red Angus is that the old time breeders didn't show cattle......they didn't mess around with big bwts......they didn't use chianina or holstein or amerifax to make show ring cattle. They had a disiplined breeding approach concentrated on economically traits for the commercial guys. Commercial guys don't care if the cattle are hachet assed or not if they return a premium of 200$ premium in the feedlots over the big butted cattle. There has to be a happy medium on pelvic measures and birth weights. Color me skepital on the ole nutrition arguments for big bwts and the same for climates. I'm sure they are a factor though. I think one reason the say Shorthorns and Maines have a hard time breaking into the commercial deal is because the big bwts are always floating around in the pedigrees.jmo