PEM can cause death! ( Polioencephalomalacia )

[Sir Loin]

Hello y’all.

I'm new here and I would like to discuss what I see as a very serious problem within the cattle industry that may answer many of your problems and questions about your steers that I have read on here.

But first permit me to qualify myself on the subject.
I”m 69 years young and have been in the cattle business all my life.
I have had some formal eduction but most of my knowledge comes from personal experiences.
Mostly with a cow/calf operation.

I am dyslectic, which I see as a gift that has served me well almost all my life.
So please be advised that my people skills are poor and I may unintentionally seem rude and abrupt.
But I do have a good sense of humor and love dry humor.
If you watch “The Big Bang Theory “ I am much like Sheldon.
I love a good debate, as long as it stays in the arena of ideas and does not turn personal.

I have spoken on this subject on the CT board and came under a vicious personal attack and was eventually permanently banned from that board.


Now the subject I wish to speak to you about may touch on politics and special interest groups and/or advertiser on this board. so if I step on your toes, please forgive me, as my only interest is the cattle industry.

The subject is:
Toxic poisoning in cattle. More specifically: in calves ( steers )
Cause: sulfur overdose
From: Ethanol by-products which can cause PEM of varying degrees including death.PEM

Now my question is: Is there any problem with me explaining/discussing this subject on this board?
Thanks
SL

 

[CAB]

By all means please do.

 

[Sir Loin]

How I came upon this problem.
The short version.
About 1995 I retired and did some traveling and lived what I thought was the American dream,
I soon learned it was not my dream and my health began to fail.
I missed my farm life and my cattle, so I decided to help my neighbor with his 400 head herd.
In effect I was his herdsman, and there were very little record keeping to go by.

I soon noticed there was, what I felt was, a much higher then expected mortality rate with both cows and born calves and aborted fetuses.
Production was way low and breed back time was longer then I expected.
Cows stayed in poor condition ( BCS around 5 ) and condition did not improve with supplemental feeding. As a matter of fact their condition seemed to get worse.
I also observed several cows who had lost their hoof.
Which led me to believe the feed was causing these problems.
So I called everyone I know in the cattle business in a search for some answers.
TBC ( to be continued )
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

The feed that was being feed was run through a tub grinder.
It consisted of:
1 or 2 bale of hay (approx. 900 lbs each )
2 loader buckets of wet Ethanol byproduct ( and I have seen the hired help add up to 7 buckets )
With the remained being cottonseed hulls to fill the grinder.
At this time water was not consider as a source of the problem as it has been used for about 100 years with no problems.

The first thing I suspected was Gossypol toxicity from the cottonseed hulls, but this was soon ruled out as was the hay as it too had been fed here for years and on other area farms with no problems.
Which only left the Ethanol byproduct after the water was tested and was ruled out.

After considerable research I found a case in Alabama where a cattleman lost 80% of his herd and filed suit against A. E. Staley Co. for damages.
The cattleman won in both the lower court and the court of appeal.

All though he did not prove what was in the feed, he did win by proving it could not have come from any other source.
google: Norman vs A. E. Staley mfg Co.

This is what put me on the road to fully understanding “ what are the pros and cons of feeding ethanol byproducts.”
TBC
SL

 

[CAB]

Were they / you feeding any type of a "balancer" type of product to compensate for the higher sulfur levels?

 

[Sir Loin]

After researching every thing I could find on Ethanol, it has became perfectly clear to me that the toxic substance in the Ethanol byproducts was and still is  “ sulfur”.
In the manufacturing of “INDUSTRIAL” grade alcohol sulfur is added to extract (clean ) the maximum amount of alcohol from the corn mash.
In “ FOOD GRADE “ alcohol production, sulfur can not be added, as it comes under FDA ( Food and Drug Administration ) regulations.

Now here is what the Ethanol Magazine has to say one the subject, as well as just about every university out there, from Fla to Colorado,  that has looked into feeding ethanol byproducts.

Protecting Distillers Grains from Sulfur Build-up

By Tom Slunecka | May 04, 2009
The amount of sulfur in distillers grains is one of the most important product elements for plants to be aware of. While sulfur at small doses is an essential nutrient, excessive amounts are a concern in all species, especially ruminants. Sulfur at high levels can cause a decrease in the rate of weight gain and at worst may cause Polioencephalomalacia (PEM), commonly known as polio,which can lead to death.
Source: http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/5660/protecting-distillers-grains-from-sulfur-build-up

Charles Staff, executive director of the Distillers Grains Technology Council, ticks off the issues that have come up in recent years: sulfur content, E. coli, mycotoxins, antibiotics, composition variability and flowability. “Most of them are not completely put to bed, and they may raise their heads in the future,” he says.  The sulfur issue, for example, popped up in two states this past year, with distillers grains quickly being ruled out as a possible source in both cases. High sulfur levels can cause cattle deaths from a condition commonly called polio, explains Staff.

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles ... ends-north

Ref: Iowa State University
Polio in Cattle can be Caused by Sulfur Toxicity
http://vetmed.iastate.edu/diagnostic-lab/diagnostic-services/diagnostic-sections/chemistry-/-toxicology/polio-cattle-can-be-ca
TBC
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

CAB,
Re:

Were they / you feeding any type of a "balancer" type of product to compensate for the higher sulfur levels?

I was told that was what the cottonseed hulls were for.
As I have feed food grade distillers gran many times over my life I it took me 4 years to figure all this out.
At that time I believed what all the talking heads, from politicians to salesman, were saying about it being the best thing to come along since sliced bred.
Over those 4 years, as I learned, I tried to get an analysis sheet on it so I could determine total daily intake.
But no one could or would furnish me one, including AE Staley, the supplier.
I only answer I got was, you have to have each load tested to determine the sulfur content, so I could use a balancer. Cost: $100. which the owner refused to do.

After beating my head against a wall for 4 years, it came down to this.
My Skelton attitude surfaced and I told the owner, “ don't bring any more of that -hit over here because I will not feed it!
He responded with : those cows are fine, their happy cows. ( with a smile )! You just don't understand that dead cows are a part of the business.
To which I responded with “ The only thing “HAPPY” around here are the F-n buzzards, I'm out of here. And that was the end of!
But my concern and investigation continued and I kept him posted on my findings.
He stopped feeding the wet stuff over a year ago.

SL

 

[Sir Loin]

I skipped this part, but I think you need to know why I'm so dedicated to finding out the whole truth about ethanol.
It's because of 10 of my kids.
The week before I went down the road, I had to dispatch ( shoot ) 10 3-350 lb heifers and steers, all of which had been diagnosed with polio by three different vets.

As I went down the line, crying like a grown man is not suppose to cry, I promised each and every one of them that I would find out what had caused me to be forced to do this.
And I will not stop until I live up to my promise.

This is my string theory.
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

Beef industry takes a direct hit broadside! This board.
http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/the-big-show/beef-industry-takes-a-direct-hit-broadside!/
SL

 

[Lucky_P]

Hmmm.  When multiple people point out the errors in your faulty reasoning, your misinterpretation of data, and wild leaps to fallacious conclusions, those are 'vicious personal attacks'? 

Tilt away at that windmill, SL!

 

[Bar QH]

When corn was high, I fed a group of steers nothing but distillers and free choice hay. I had a feed salesman stop by, when he found out what I was feeding told me I would have all sorts of urinary problems, so on so forth from the sulfer. I then pointed to him the steers weighed 1200+pounds and they were hitting the road in the next couple weeks, if they've been fine so far, I'll gamble the last few. From 600 pounds to full weight, I had no problems, if I were to do it again, I would feed a supplement to be safe. I just didn't know any better but who cares because the cattle were healthy as could be. Lots of people feed massive amounts of bi products. Obviously doesn't hurt anything if it did they wouldn't risk their operation. You either worked for a idiot, or this is a big fib.

 

[Bar QH]

Referring to your question is there a problem with posting on this site, I would say yes. Stir the pot elsewhere. If you are 60 something and bored, talk to your kids, grandkids whatever you said you had. Play bingo, volunteer, greet people at wal mart. Make worthy of your time, I'm new to the site but really enjoy asking questions to fellow cattleman and getting opinions on what I feel are worthy topics.

 

[Sir Loin]

Hello Lucky, nice to see you again.
Why don't you introduce yourself, as I did.
***REMOVED BY MODERATOR - NAME CALLING - WARNING SENT***
How disappointing. That cost you some of the respect I have for you.

Why don't we try to keep it on a professional level over here?
What say.
SL

 

[Lucky_P]

SL,
I've been here for years; didn't need to 'introduce' myself.  I'm a known entity.
Didn't bring anything/anyone along with me, though there are others here who know your deal.

Professional?  Absolutely.  But I, too am old,and crochety enough that I'll call BS on misinformation.

And, since you specifically requested it, here 'tis.
I, too have been around cattle all my life; both sets of grandparents milked dairy cattle, I grew up with a crossbred beef herd.  I'm only in my late 50s, so you do have a few years on me.
I have raised hundreds of dairy calves, have had beef cattle of my own for almost my entire adult life. Multiple breeds and crosses.  Currently have a commercial herd of ~80 crossbred beef cows.
I have a B.S. in microbiology and D.V.M. degrees from Auburn University, veterinary pathology residency at UofMO.
Spent 5 years in mixed animal practice, predominantly food animal, prior to my stint at UMC-VMDL; have been doing diagnostic pathology in western KY -again, with a predominant food animal caseload - for the past 20 years.
So yes, I've got a lot of formal education - but that doesn't necessarily make me smarter than most - but it does give me a broad understanding of understanding of chemistry, biology, physiology, disease, etc.  Have gained a lot of knowledge outside the classroom - from mistakes I've made, and those I've seen made by others.

Yes, Polioencephalomalacia can cause death!  I see it from time to time.
But, your fixation on ethanol by-products and Sulfur - and your incrimination of them as something akin to toxic/hazardous waste - is somewhat bizarre.

Distiller's grain products - whether from a 'fuel' ethanol plant or a whiskey distillery or brewery - are a good feed supplement which can be fed to cattle. 
Yes, sulfur content of some byproduct/coproduct feeds, like DDG and CGF, must be considered - but only in the context of TOTAL DIETARY SULFUR; If water sources contain high sulfates, forages contain significant S content, then one must also consider the potential additive effect of feeding these materials.

Have I seen PEM in cattle which were fed distiller's grain products in an improper manner?  Yes.
But I've also seen PEM - and more frequently, I might add - in cattle which were on a high-grain ration, with NO distiller's grain or corn gluten feed. 
Additionally, there are numerous documented, published cases of cattle grazing, with no grain supplement, which developed PEM as a result of excessively high sulfate levels in their drinking water.
Sulfur is not the sole cause of polioencephalomalacia; merely one component which must be considered.
Excessive fermentable carbohydrate, excessive copper, excessive selenium - and many other components can cause issues, but that doesn't mean that one should eschew all feeding of grains or mineral supplementation.
Rail on, brother...

 

[jason]

This topic is locked.  I welcome all discussions, and have a pretty lax policy on what can be posted on the big show, but members need to treat others with respect.

If you have any questions or concerns, contact me or another moderator.