PHA hot off the presses!

[JbarL]

new member....referred to this site from cattle forum about my question about  PHA  and  TH  .......i just started a small  Angus herd in south eastern Ohio....the breeder has mentioned to me his interst in me becoming a part of his Maine efforts.  all of the info i received fromthe site has been a great help, considering my situation of being an absent owner....how prevalent is it in the Maine breed?..is it controllable through negative testing of how many generations?  is it more promnet in any certain geographic areas  presently?  great info.....thanks for any info yo all can share...this has been  a great tool.welcome to all......
oh and as far as the gene/protein debate?????.....any common gene is a common gene correct???  the fact that it the same genes  in both breed says that there has to be a direct link  at some time.....but im just and ole hippie with some cows.....what do i no/...look forward to some more of it....
  thanks jbarl

 

[DL]

new member....referred to this site from cattle forum about my question about  PHA  and  TH  .......i just started a small  Angus herd in south eastern Ohio....the breeder has mentioned to me his interst in me becoming a part of his Maine efforts.  all of the info i received fromthe site has been a great help, considering my situation of being an absent owner....how prevalent is it in the Maine breed?..is it controllable through negative testing of how many generations?  is it more promnet in any certain geographic areas  presently?  great info.....thanks for any info yo all can share...this has been  a great tool.welcome to all......
oh and as far as the gene/protein debate?????.....any common gene is a common gene correct???  the fact that it the same genes  in both breed says that there has to be a direct link  at some time.....but im just and ole hippie with some cows.....what do i no/...look forward to some more of it....
  thanks jbarl

OH goodie another remnant from the 60's (or maybe 70's there were still hippies then!)  welcome!
If I understand correctly there is some interest in you becoming part of the Maine operation  and that you are in (or at least the cows are in ) Ohio - I wouldn't get involved unless I knew the test status of every cow - while we are aware of certain pedigrees and lines that are very suspect in terms of producing carriers (ie Draft Pick and Stinger  and the composite bull Payback) it is now becoming apparent that there is a lot we don't know. There are cows on the newly released AMAA carrier list that do not trace to the "known pedigrees" and a friend C-sectioned a cow tonight bred to a known carrier who was "clean by pedigree. So in addition to the possibility that pedigrees are not accurate it also appears that there are other links to the defective gene that we haven't ferretted out yet.

It is a recessive condition so if your cows are clean and you use non carrier bulls YOU DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM! (and that is a good thing). In the next few days (weeks???) we hope to get some good info together on genetic defects on this planet that might help. In the mean time it works like this
P = normal
p = defective gene

breed carrier to carrier Pp x Pp =
50% carriers (Pp)
25% normal
25% dead with PHA

breed carrier to normal Pp x PP
50% carriers Pp
50% normal PP

This is not a cumulative thing - the risk of having a dead PHA calf is 25% for each carrier to carrier mating.

There have been prominent AI and syndicate bulls that are carriers - being north of Ohio and having connections there it seems like there are sure a lot of PHA issues there - but also TH was first tracked down in Indiana and Illinois and PHA was "discovered" when people thought they had weird TH calves. But my "regional bias" I think is just that - I have heard from veterinarians and producers from all over the US who have had PHA calves so it is a bit like chicken man (does anyone remember chicken man? A mild mannered man by the name of Benton Harbor turned into a crime fighter chicken man - he' s everywhere - he's everywhere....buck buck buck buck....)

Anyhow - there is ongoing debate about breeding carriers - but if the herd you are looking at is clean I would keep it that way! Le t me know if I answered your questions ....sometimes the brain moves faster than the fingers....ps somewhere on the site are pictures of PHA calves - within the last few days I think - if you can't find them I have a bundle of them! DL

pss re the common gene deal - if you are referring to Maines and Dexters - yes it is the same gene, yes it codes for the same protein, but the defect is different (one is a deletion the other a substitution) but the overall effect is the same - the protein is screwed! the calf has PHA and dies - I would guess if you bred a carrier Maine to a carrier Dexter 25% of the time you would get a PHA calf that would look for all the world like the "regular " PHA calf - that is what happened with the 2 different deletions in TH but that is another story for another time..

 

[JbarL]

thanks dragon lady....this is a new angus  herd for me ...the breederi purchased them from  is  interested in me joining his efforts in the maine directions possiblly next year.....what a great group of information...cant thank you all enough...i'll for sure be watching quite often...and i feel confident with your information to know what direction to go as to the priority with the mix.... .....was a teenager in "68".....but cut my teeth in the 70's....am an active memeber in JABOOH  ( just a bunch of ole hippies )....

who would have thought the hippies were right????  thanks again  JbarL

 

[aj]

In regards to the th defect in the shorthorns I think the following occured. The old Improver bull from Ireland spread a few carriers around the breed in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Apparently very few people knew of the problem. When the doublestuff bull became so popular and was so heavily used th calves started showing up. He was popular and the phenotype everybody was chasing was tied to the carrier cattle. So if doublestuff hadn't come along , I'm not sure anybody would be aware of the th problem.  :-*

 

[DL]

aj - my understanding was that TH was around and ignored for 10 plus years. I have heard that it was ignored either (1) because important people with power and money and carrier bulls were in charge or (2) recently someone mentioned that at the time TH would have been the kiss of death for the breed as black hided cattle were considered the only way to go and the red ones were slowly changing that notion. The paper describing TH in Shorthorns was published by Steffens et al in 2000 and described 6 calves born in 1999 - three in the US and 3 in Canada. IMHO - by the time this type of thing makes the scientific press there have been lost of affected calves in the dead pile. While I agree that Double Stuff (and all his little Double Trouble offspring) sure increased the incidence (and potentially the awareness) other bulls played a roll too (Kool, Reno, Vegas, etc)

IMVHO I think the general response of any association to a genetic defect is to try to ignore it and hope it goes away - now they may say on paper that they have a plan and this is what they will do, but...interestingly I read where the AQHA (dealing with HYPP) applauded the AAA for their genetic defect policy, but AAA members are unable to get access to the genetic test for dwarfism - the AAA paid 40 K for it's development and now the paying members can't use it - thank goodness for Dr B et al and the AAA policy is one of the stupidest things I have heard recently!!

 

[genes]

So JBarL you are thinking of taking your angus cows and crossing them with Maine?  Since you should have a PHA/TH clean herd it would be very recommended to stick to clean bulls and avoid the problem all together.  Luckily there is the DNA test so we don't have to guess or go simply off pedigree.  With some of what we hear about mistaken pedigrees and everything, it is really just wise to always get a test.

 

[JbarL]

just how many breeds are affected???..  at first i was hearing it was  a  maine anjoe  trait...  am i understanding that all rregistered breeds need tested  for pha and th??  what breeds/ geographic areas are we looking at  for more "active" areas or breeds....i just started a small herd of angus in south eastern ohio and this concerns me, considering i am an absent owner....havent spoke with my breeder yet, because i thought it was mainly in the maine anjoe cross which he is working with now...and my roll doesnt come into play with the cross untill later this year.....what should i ask....make sure of??  when i recieve my registration will there be info there?    thanks  jbarl

 

[genes]

I think DL just did a great description of the two defects in another thread, so definitely read that.  Basically, TH is a problem in the Shorthorn breed, and PHA in the Maine Anjou breed.  But because these breeds have used each other's genetics quite a bit in their appendix animal and such, there are Maines with TH and Shorties with PHA.  Then, there are also many composite clubby animals that use these breeds.  So basically, it is recommended to test everything Shorthorn or Maine, particularly if you are unsure of pedigree or they are known to trace to carriers.

The Angus should be free of these particular defects if they are indeed straight Angus.  But if this is just a commercial Angus based herd, and you aren't really sure of full ancestry, I wouldn't breed to any carrier bulls without testing the cow.

 

[JbarL]

i have have to say that i to agree strongly with dl...especially the part about responsibility,integrity,and using the info/knowledge/and easy acces to all the above, and when i ask my self what would a cowboy do?  seems  to me he'd trreat it like posin....to the herd he was in charge of and the horse he was ridin', and the dog that went with him.....there are animals.....he depends on them and they depend on  him......a cowboyed no what to do......

 

[ELBEE]

Folks, this guy has some interesting insight!

 

[DL]

Folks, this guy has some interesting insight!

Find I agree with you again ELBEE! ;D

 

[red]

Jbarl, off topic but that is not new for this group!
If you are an old hippie, you'll love the shirt I'm wearing today. No idea how old it is, typical of my closet.

Second Chance
Hemp company
Yellow Springs, Ohio


do like the analogy though!