Potentially Killed a Calf - Unknowingly

[OKshorthorn]

Back in June we had a recip implanted with an embryo for a due date of March 28 2013. We were really excited about the pairing, Roan Sue x Tuscaloosa! We put a heat tab on her and she never came in heat, did the same thing the following cycle and again, no heat was observed and the heat tab remained gray. Around October we saw her in standing heat, much to our displeasure we assumed she has lost the embryo. We watched her closely the next month and didn't notice her coming back in heat again so we decided to wait until December (6 months bred) and have her preg checked. We took another recip that was implanted on the same day to get checked as well. She was confirmed bred and the recip cow we saw in standing heat was confirmed open by the vet. The following week we set her up with 2cc of cysterelin and a CIDR, after a week we pulled the CIDR and gave 5cc of lutalyse. Put the heat tab on again and waited, 2 days nothing, 3 days nothing, she never came in heat. At this point we were assuming she came in heat during the night, the heat tab failed and we just missed it. We took the cow to REI in Stillwater to have them set her up and implant another embryo. Prior to giving any drugs they did an ultrasound and told us she is 5-6 months bred. This was right at a month after we had given shots.

I'm sure that if the calf was dead they would have noticed, as well as the cow should have aborted if we indeed killed the calf. Is it possible we have indeed done enough damage to the baby in some way that it will not survive? Still born? I guess we will find out in about a month. I have gone over this in my head a hundred times, what should we have done different, could I have prevented this?

What would you guys and gals have done differently to prevent this particular situation?

 

[JimF]

probably would not have done anything differently - have also had the unfortunate experience of a vet calling a short term bred open however I aborted the calf trying to set her up again - a potential high-dollar pregnancy aborted -  however if you used a vet that could not determine a 6 month pregnancy, you need a new vet - no question about that as that one is incompetent - I did not use that vet again and told him why - if she has not aborted by now you have probably dodged a bullet -

 

[leanbeef]

I would agree...I think you were as cautious as you could have been or as anybody would have been. Sometimes we just have those weird situations, and this sounds like one of those times.

And maybe you did dodge a bullet. I wouldn't assume anything is wrong at this point. We had a cow several years ago that we thought was open and was lutalysed. She never showed heat, and it turned out that she was bred. The calf was a little small and weak, and there was noticeably a lot of blood when she calved, but other than that, everything was normal. And the calf did survive...everybody was fine. Lutalyse doesn't work after the window...I'm not exactly sure what that is, but six months is way after it. I'm not sure what other drugs she had or how that might affect the pregnancy, but maybe you're ok. I would just wait and see. And keep a close eye on her at calving time in case the calf does need a little extra TLC.

Good luck!

 

[mccannfarms]

The only thing that you could have done different would have been to do a blood test to confirm pregnancy to remove some of the human error. But if a vet cant call a second stage pregnancy then that is a major unexpected issue with their compentency, and I probably wouldnt have them pregnancy checking for me in the future.

 

[OKshorthorn]

Thanks for the responses. I agree the vet has essentially been "fired" I was extremely upset that at 6 months we couldn't get an accurate anawer. It would have been one thing if he would have said, I'm not sure, or maybe something felt off, but to give a resounding no, she is open and be wrong about it really questions his competency. Unfortunately this isn't a commercial cow calf herd with a wrong answer resulting in shipping a pregnant cow to the yards. This is an expensive embryo that potentially could be worth a significant amount of money in the future. Again I appreciate your responses.

 

[cpubarn]

I will admit that having learned my lesson the hard way, I hold the recips around until they calve/ or stand two or three months in a row.  No matter what the vet says. 


Feed is expense , but these embryos are nuts.  I have an angus cow bagging up that stood 2 weeks ago.  Insanity is a normaal condition around this farm I guess.

PS - We put in two roan sue x Tuscaloosa's from Duis' dispersal, so far 1 is baggin up (due March 13th) the other, not so much, but my fingers are still crossed.  I will give up on her about the first of April....

Good Luck!

Mark

 

[Bulldaddy]

I have seen lutalyse not abort long bred cows so hopefully you won't lose this pregnancy.  We ultra sound our cows between 30 and 90 days.  It is the best way to determine pregnancy and fetal health. You can also determine sex of calf between 60 and 90 days which is good to know.

 

[Cowboy]

The key words in this post is LENGTH OF PREGNANCY.

Most of the time, vast majority of cows any way, when they get to 4 plus in thier pregnancy, the placenta will then take over the production and maintenance pf PROGESTERONE. This is the pregnancy hormone if you will. Many - many - times, once they get to that majical 4 months, it will take a steroid along with Prostoglandin to induce abortion.

Most likely, she will never know you have it too her -- especially at close to 6 months. You did however get lucky!! I for one can not understand an experienced vet missing a scond term pregnancy by palpation!

Good lesson learned however, when in doubt - just wait!

Terry

 

[hamburgman]

Past 120 or 150 days a prostaglandin alone doesn't work.

 

[HGC]

If she is still pregnant you did not harm the calf.  The cystorellin and CIDR will not harm a pregnant cow.  The lutylase will cause the Corpus Luteum to regress, stopping the production of progesterone, which causes the cow to come into heat.  A cow that is 6 months pregnant the placenta will be producing considerably more progesterone than the Corpus Luteum, so it would not affect the calf.

As far as your vet, if he is sleeving her, 6 months is difficult to determine (if you don't palpate alot of cows) because the calf is big enough to slide off the pelvic wall and into the body cavity, but not big enough to feel when it is that deep in the body.  You have feel for alternate things to determine pregnancy.  You probably told him her story before he stuck his hand is her and he didn't feel anything, so he called her open, without looking for any other signs of pregnancy.  I would still look for a different vet.  If you can find one that ultrasounds, you will love the feedback you get.

 

[Lucky_P]

I'm betting you get a normal, healthy calf in a month or so.
Two years ago, I had a group of 5 or 6 first-calf heifers that we just turned to the bull, 'cause we'd consistently had difficulty getting the spring first-timers to cycle back in properly to AI 'em.  At fall preg-check, the first five through the chute were open - and we'd already made the decision to bump them to the fall herd to increase cow numbers .  The last heifer looked so poor that I swore there was no way she was bred - and didn't even bother to palpate her.
Never could catch her in heat when fall breeding season came in, so we set her up with GnRH/CIDR and Estrumate injection when we pulled the CIDR - no heat.  Waited 11 days, gave another dose of Estrumate. No heat.  Kicked her out to the bull.  Surprised me with a healthy heifer calf in late March.  If I'd have taken the time to palpate, I'd have known she was the only one of her contemporary group to cycle (and fairly early!) and breed back.
As HGC said, a dose (or two) of prostaglandin at 4-5-6 months' gestation is often not enough to abort 'em.

 

[RyanChandler]

I have seen lutalyse not abort long bred cows so hopefully you won't lose this pregnancy.  We ultra sound our cows between 30 and 90 days.  It is the best way to determine pregnancy and fetal health. You can also determine sex of calf between 60 and 90 days which is good to know.

I've had terrible luck using lute to abort calves.  I've made sure and put it deep in the muscle too.  Some have suggested adding dexamethasone to help?

 

[cowman 52]

There is a time when lutalyse is not going to abort your calf, the 120 to 150 day is close, but have seen it go to past 200.

Years ago lutalyse came from Mexico in 5cc plus vials with Spanish instructions. Dr mills in Lousiana was one of the pioneers in heat synchronization, then he would raise holy he'll if you put the injection anywhere but in the stifle. We took the same thought process with us ever since and others that have used the same thought have had few complaints. 

 

[vcsf]

As has been said you probably did not do any harm.  In my opinion you did nothing wrong as you got the cow preg checked before giving her any drugs.

As HGC said I am guessing you probably told the vet about seeing her standing when she was preg checked and this contributed to her being called open.  With all due respect to the vets on here preg checking is the one time I believe you get better results from a vet when they have as little information as possible available.  It is interesting to watch vets preg check at a sale barn and as different groups of cows come through they ask if it is marked down when the cows were exposed and then call the cows all bred to a time corresponding to that but if no dates are known for a group there gets to be a lot bigger variation in the stages of pregnancy.

 

[Bulldaddy]

I have seen lutalyse not abort long bred cows so hopefully you won't lose this pregnancy.  We ultra sound our cows between 30 and 90 days.  It is the best way to determine pregnancy and fetal health. You can also determine sex of calf between 60 and 90 days which is good to know.

I've had terrible luck using lute to abort calves.  I've made sure and put it deep in the muscle too.  Some have suggested adding dexamethasone to help?

I use 5 cc Lutalyse and 10 cc of Dex to induce labor.  It woirks like charm.  But I only do this when I want to induce labor at full term for a live calf.  I believe the dex helps them come in milk.

 

[cowman 52]

The dex causes the calves lungs to inflate for lack of a better term.  My ex was a labor and delivery nurse, thats what the dr. Used it for

 

[BTDT]

Vets need to be held accountable for such incompetencies.  I would mix no words in telling the vet that called her open that if the calf was aborted or is born dead, they would be held responsible.