Problem with Club Calf Industry...thoughts please

[clementcattle]

Club calf and show cattle industry problems include:

1.Cattle that are impractical due to structural issues, lethal birth defects, extreme birth weights.    Short productive life without major intervention.

2.Misrepresented origins, ages, breeding, birthweights, EPD figures to make the animal more appealing or valuable at sale time.  (Lots of January 2011 calves observed Thanksgiving and Christmas 2010.)  

3.Too much variance in progeny due to loss of concentrated traits(homozygousity).  Breeding mutts to mutts hoping for a single great one doesn't make sense.

4.Selection for phenotype only with no regard for performance traits.  Why would you breed to a bull that may have 120 pound BW or poor WW or YW?

5.The need to have heifers FAT at show/sale time, to their detriment in their later productive life.  They can't milk or calve as well.

Excellent points, I think its time our industry and this discussion board start finding solutions to these "slap in the face" problems.

 

[knabe]

we need to be extremely critical of what are industry consists of. 

really?

 

[clementcattle]

we need to be extremely critical of what are industry consists of. 

really?

yes, that is how we continually get better and it is how we will survive.

 

[yessir]

Am I the only one that feels that the original poster sounds pompous, condescending? Why would you post a question if you alredy have pre-concieved notions?  I doubt that you are looking to educate yourself, becuase i can tell you already know everything.

 

[clementcattle]

Am I the only one that feels that the original poster sounds pompous, condescending? Why would you post a question if you alredy have pre-concieved notions?  I doubt that you are looking to educate yourself, becuase i can tell you already know everything.

While I may have some preconceived ideas to the answers to my question, I genuinely posted this thread and joined this forum to further broaden my knowledge about cattle in general and the show industry.  I can assure that my ideas have already chalged from the plethora of healthy discussion occuring within this thread.  Also, in what way does your comment progress the discussion further or get us any closer to solving some of the questions within our industry?  No, i am not pompous, condescending, nor do I know everything.  Hopefully your doubts are cleared up.

 

[kfacres]

Am I the only one that feels that the original poster sounds pompous, condescending? Why would you post a question if you alredy have pre-concieved notions?  I doubt that you are looking to educate yourself, becuase i can tell you already know everything.

Am I the only one that feels that through this being your first, and only post-- and that you joined the forum today...  that you afraid of revealing who you really are, and would prefer to hide behind a new, anyonomous trademark name? 


I may piss alot of people taking the way I do... but i assure you I enjoy signing my name to every post... 

 

[formersteerjock]

I just wish we could make the females out of steer bulls milk better and reduce the birth weights of the good clubby bulls and still be able to sale steers that could compete.

 

[jason]

Am I the only one that feels that the original poster sounds pompous, condescending? Why would you post a question if you alredy have pre-concieved notions?  I doubt that you are looking to educate yourself, becuase i can tell you already know everything.

Not wrong with the topic, that is the whole point of the forum to discuss and most people have preconceived ideas even if they are asking for other's opinions. 

Yes, this topic does come up every once in a while and if we were taking odds I bet the over on 5 pages everytime. (10 on shorthorn threads  ;D )

 

[Mill Iron A]

I am not bashing club calves, purebred people, or commercial people.  However, just to provoke some discussion what if we tried to encompass a few of these together.  I enjoy every entity of the cattle industry and I like talking with everyone from ohlde breeders to simmental people.  We will never totally agree with one kind of cattle but is it just completely impossible to breed for seedstock that can perform, have e.p.d.'s that will improve herds, and if crossed with some commercial cattle could make some competitive cattle in the showring?  Why does it all have to be composite and hw?  Why do we have to single trait select?  The shorthorn breed and maine anjou breed have literally made no progress in the last ten years from an e.p.d. standpoint but visually have done well.  Why can't we find one that is in the right direction for balanced e.p.d's and a showring look?

 

[twistedhshowstock]

I am not bashing club calves, purebred people, or commercial people.  However, just to provoke some discussion what if we tried to encompass a few of these together.  I enjoy every entity of the cattle industry and I like talking with everyone from ohlde breeders to simmental people.  We will never totally agree with one kind of cattle but is it just completely impossible to breed for seedstock that can perform, have e.p.d.'s that will improve herds, and if crossed with some commercial cattle could make some competitive cattle in the showring?  Why does it all have to be composite and hw?  Why do we have to single trait select?  The shorthorn breed and maine anjou breed have literally made no progress in the last ten years from an e.p.d. standpoint but visually have done well.  Why can't we find one that is in the right direction for balanced e.p.d's and a showring look?

I appreciate all aspects of the industry, I think some thought I knocked the commercial industry because of a prior post I made.  Now dont get me wrong, I love show cattle, but the reason I have no desire to raise commercial cattle is because I have no where near enough real estate to be able to run enough commercial cattle to make it profitable.

But to answer your question a little.  I think it has something to do with what selection is based on in the two industries.  In the commercial industry, that calf coming small and without assistance, mom raising that calf on pasture without help from creep, and that calf converting feed efficiently and getting to market weight quickly are all of utmost importance to the commercial cattleman being successful.  However in the showring, having cattle with the physical attricbutes and style to compete in a showring where judges often do not see EPDs is of utmost imprtance to being successful.  Commercial cattlemen and feedlots typically dont care what their cattle look like, so commercial cattlement with the exception of soundness are going to throw most of visual appraisal out the window and weigh heavily on EPDs and growth traits when selecting cattle.  At the same time people in the club calf industry will often throw growth traits and EPDs out as long as they can produce something with the showring look, thats what is most important to them and there is no EPD for it after all.  So I think its pretty obvious why they select their cattle using different criteria and I dont foresee that ever changing.

 

[kfacres]

I just wish we could make the females out of steer bulls milk better and reduce the birth weights of the good clubby bulls and still be able to sale steers that could compete.

the problem with birth weight isn't birth weight 100%, it's shape and build of calf...  The big headed, huge bone calves won't just slide out... so unless you select for other traits, you're guarenteeing yourself to have a hard calving scenerio... Then when you throw an actual big birth weight into the equasion..... ??? 

 

[olsun]

"I have always taken great offense at people coming on these website and griping about show cattle.  With precious few exceptions, it comes from bitter, jealous people who have minimal involvement and are griping because its not easy.  Pay your dues for about 10 years before you even start telling everyone else what's wrong with them."


Chambero,
This was not the purpose of the thread nor have I seen anyone do that on this discussion.  Now I agree that showing cattle is an excellent life lesson tool, but to further improve and continue those learning experiences and our industry, we need to be extremely critical of what are industry consists of.  That is the purpose of this discussion.

 

[olsun]

Sorry about that, I am computer challenged. I meant to ask what was the point of the last post?

 

[olsun]

Sorry about that. I am computer challenged, but what was the point of that post?

 

[branson.m.]

Im selling all my cattle and starting fresh with Dog Shows... anyone interested in the American Kennel Club, at least we know something there might be legitimately registered. You guys take this stuff way too seriously, just breed great cattle and let your stock do the talking no need to bicker children, all he asked for were thoughts !!!

 

[aj]

I think the thing that gets lost on the kids...is that cattle are ruminients and the are unique in the fact that they turn low quality forage into a protein source very effieciently. This would be a foreign concept for the kids because of all the show feed and show barns and what not. To them it is all about fixing type and being part of their parents reliving the glory years. It is what it is.