Question on Sooner-Maine Anjou bull

[SEA]

Thanks for all the Posts!

SEA  (clapping)

 

[CAB]

My mistake on the Trendsetter sexed semen. I talked to my friend about the sexed Trendsetter, and while I was thinking about the Simi crossed bull he was talking about Buck's bull named Trendsetter. He does have a flush coming anytime by Buck's bull. I'm sorry for the mistake. Cab

 

[hntwhitetail]

Some full Sibs to Sooner and Boomer were sold @ the embryos on snow....

 

[SEA]

I heard a report of two HAA Wisdom 505S sons that sold at Hartman's sale.  A PB Maine son sold for for $80,000, and a half blood Maine/Angus son sold for about $54,000.

 

[SEA]

[[/quote]

Nice looking Bull on paper.  I noticed the Cow has Smithbilt on both top and bottom.
[/quote]

Where do you find Smithbilt on the top side of Penleton?  He is sired by Irish Whiskey?  ???

 

[knabe]

[

Nice looking Bull on paper.  I noticed the Cow has Smithbilt on both top and bottom.
[/quote]

Where do you find Smithbilt on the top side of Penleton?  He is sired by Irish Whiskey?  ???
[/quote]

actually smithbilt's sire is in the cow 3x relatively closely.

 

[SEA]

Nice looking Bull on paper.  I noticed the Cow has Smithbilt on both top and bottom.

actually smithbilt's sire is in the cow 3x relatively closely.
[/quote]

That you Knabe, I missunderstood.  You know, I read that post several times, and still did not catch COW side.  I stand corrected.

While we are on the subject of the Maine Anjou Pendlet on bull, I have pondering a question for you,  and have been procrastinating on sending you an email.  So I will do it here.

I totally understand your reasoning for using the "older" pedigree Maine bulls to get maternal genetics in your herd, and back in the more current bred Maine cattle themselves.  Using the cow GMC MISS TIGHT GENES seems a good approach.  I both agree and applaud you for your direction and voracious research.  Here is my problem, and what I do not understand.  He is the sire of Pendlet on.  Irish Whiskey.  I don't like him.  IMHO  The reasons are simple.  When I am looking for ANY bull to make replacement females (and I strongly believe all "true breeders" have a goal or program when mating cattle, whether it be for replacement females, bulls, steers, show cattle, feedlot, ie performance, etc.) they must meet certain criteria that I (or you the breeder) must establish.  For me, when researching a any breed of bull for producing replacement females, he must be CLEAN, of genetic defects, as I do not want to propagate problems in my herd or breed, no matter how good the bull may otherwise be.  Also, he must have good maternal traits (a topic for another time), behind him. 

IRISH WHISKEY

1. Is a PHA Carrier.
2. Has no milk, IMHO from the research I have done. 

So,  he does not make my short list.  And I have looked at allot of Irish Whisky sons and almost pulled the trigger, ie Diamond Driver, another PHAC.

What are your thoughts?

 

[knabe]

thickness, lower flank, muscle and milk seem to be antagonistic.  combining irish whiskey with milk or limited edition with milk, legacy plus with milk and countless other combinations are a crapshoot and people will try them, i will try them.  probably what will happen is a balance that most people will not accept and will continue to try and create an east german female swimmer on steroids with sophia loren (which would look strange, what would the bull look like?).  if people thought they could get away with udder implants, they would, maybe they do already.  i've seen what injections look like years later and it's slightly annoying and mostly unnecessary as people train their eye to the artificial exception.  sad.

 

[SEA]

thickness, lower flank, muscle and milk seem to be antagonistic.  combining irish whiskey with milk or limited edition with milk, legacy plus with milk and countless other combinations are a crapshoot and people will try them, i will try them.  probably what will happen is a balance that most people will not accept and will continue to try and create an east german female swimmer on steroids with sophia loren (which would look strange, what would the bull look like?).  if people thought they could get away with udder implants, they would, maybe they do already.  i've seen what injections look like years later and it's slightly annoying and mostly unnecessary as people train their eye to the artificial exception.  sad.

I understrand.  You are trying to produce an animal with both extreme thickness, lower flank and muscle with milk and maternal.  A MIGHTY AND DAUNTING TASK INDEED!!

I would like that animal also, but is it a "real possiblity in nature" or as you wrote above, are the traits "antagonistic" in nature and therefore, untainable.

Should we breed for two types of individuals and therefore breed for bulls and cows or termiinal and maternal?  While always mating back and forth depending on needs and goals?

One otherthought I have ...and I beleive it is an "age old question" to true cattle breeders and cowmen.  How much muscle expression, lower flank, and thickness do we need in the cow?

 

[knabe]

I understrand.  You are trying to produce an animal with both extreme thickness, lower flank and muscle with milk and maternal.  A MIGHTY AND DAUNTING TASK INDEED!!
[/quote]

i wouldn't use the word extreme, in fact removing extremes, ie too deep, too shallow, too thick, too narrow.  again, it probably won't happen as it's difficult to stray from a normal distribution.

 

[SEA]

I understrand.  You are trying to produce an animal with both extreme thickness, lower flank and muscle with milk and maternal.  A MIGHTY AND DAUNTING TASK INDEED!!

i wouldn't use the word extreme, in fact removing extremes, ie too deep, too shallow, too thick, too narrow.  again, it probably won't happen as it's difficult to stray from a normal distribution.
[/quote]

In my post I was using the word "extreme" to differentiate, to draw comparison on a single trait.  Some would say, from very light to very heavy muscled or thickness.  You could use a scale of 1 to 10 for thickness or any one trait.  For example, to be able to "Benchmark" your system you could select a sire commonly known for a single trait ie AA Mr. Skinny Butt = 1, and AA Mr. Ass Man = 10.  But I digress...

In your earlier post you were making the point of using a "heavy muscled or thick bull back on a maternal cow.  I believe Irish Whikey, Limited Edition, and Legacy Plus to be heavier muscled or 'extreme" muscled bulls, when compared to other bulls in the Maine Anjou breed.  That is why you selected the bulls mention aboove.

We really missed the whole goal and concept tht i was trying to convey in my last post...thus farI thought this post has been very entertaining and I have enjoyed it..

In my earlier post, I was attempting to stimulate a conversaion about two topics.

1.  The possible, never ending, need for two different types of sires, both terminal and maternal.  Are these traits such that they are in fact antagonistis to each other?  Just as commercial cattle men run a cow herd that they breed to "performance" bulls, and do not keep the resulting females back for replacements, only for feedlot cattle.

2. How "thick", and "heavy muscled" do our cows need to be?  And still throw the thickness and muscle into their offspring, when bred back to a very thick, heavy muscled sire?
 

 

[knabe]

it seems bulls for a while have been selected for siring a single type, whether male or female rather than two types.  that's probably the problem. that's why i picked two of the sires was because of the females rather than the males.  i did get one overly thick female from an angular midas cow from pendleton so that would be the dam of the calf with lots of milk and angularity, the dam of pendleton with supposedly milk and an angular shape with the other being whiskey.  it seems whiskey is pretty prepotent.  since the calf is overly thick and therefore shy on milk i will wait to see how she milks before worrying about what to breed her too.  happily she's polled from a scurred cow though she may be a red carrier as the cow is.