Red angus-black angus

[aj]

Any one remember when the Chiangus.....and the Ankina beef associations were formed? If they would have combined would they be more viable today? I think this is a very valid question.

 

[cbcr]

It is interesting in looking for information.  At one time there was The American Black Maine-Anjou Association and the International Maine-Anjou Association.

In reading comments about some of these other breeds, especially the Chianina, what has happened to them, the fullbloods are almost non existent.

It seems that many of today's associations have lost focus of their breed.  If these other breed associations don't open their eyes, the same thing will happen to them as well.  There is no distinction of breed in looks, they are all black.

Look at any sale catalog, there are very few animals that are purebred.

The Red and Black Angus, while have some similarities their is still discrimination  against the Reds.  As an example the CAB program is supposed to also include the Red Angus, but again the requirements that everyone is familiar with is the 51% black hided.

While both the Red and Black Angus are registered in the same association in all countries except the United States.  In some areas the Red Angus Breeders are more focused,  they require whole herd reporting. 

There would be absolutely no chance of these associations of merging primarily because their is too much difference between the two organizations.

 

[aj]

Do the epds correlate between the Angus-Red Angus?

 

[BTDT]

No aj, the epd's do not correlate.  But, the red angus have gotten together with the simmi's and now have epd's that can directly compare the two breeds.  From what I understand they are looking at including several other breeds as well, but not the black angus.
The breed associations were founded on totally different concepts.  The red angus was founded with 100% commercial and performance acceptance in mind.  That is why they have total herd reporting, so that EVERY SINGLE OFFSPRING is considered, instead of just the ones the breeders want included.  I have heard several black angus breeders absolutely bash the THR because "Why would we want to admit and highlight our sub-par cattle?" 

DSCSD is correct in their thinking, but it is breed dependent.... meaning, he seems to think the AAA would be lowering their standards by allowing Red angus in, when in fact, the reds would be lowering their standards (THR) to want to allow the blacks in! 
DSCSD also admits that white is allowed and is not acceptable to most breeders unless "it is a cow family that they do not have much of or unless it is really good".  The red angus have very clear rules on white and it does not matter how "good" it is, or "how many of the family line" is alive, it automatically goes to a category II.  Again, a difference in philosophy. 

And that, in a nutshell, is why the breeds will never become one.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

No aj, the epd's do not correlate.  But, the red angus have gotten together with the simmi's and now have epd's that can directly compare the two breeds.  From what I understand they are looking at including several other breeds as well, but not the black angus.
The breed associations were founded on totally different concepts.  The red angus was founded with 100% commercial and performance acceptance in mind.  That is why they have total herd reporting, so that EVERY SINGLE OFFSPRING is considered, instead of just the ones the breeders want included.  I have heard several black angus breeders absolutely bash the THR because "Why would we want to admit and highlight our sub-par cattle?" 

DSCSD is correct in their thinking, but it is breed dependent.... meaning, he seems to think the AAA would be lowering their standards by allowing Red angus in, when in fact, the reds would be lowering their standards (THR) to want to allow the blacks in! 
DSCSD also admits that white is allowed and is not acceptable to most breeders unless "it is a cow family that they do not have much of or unless it is really good".  The red angus have very clear rules on white and it does not matter how "good" it is, or "how many of the family line" is alive, it automatically goes to a category II.  Again, a difference in philosophy. 

And that, in a nutshell, is why the breeds will never become one.

Clear and perfect!

(clapping)

 

[cowman 52]

Had a conversation with a Friend who hauls 90 percent registered cattle from sales all over the country.  His business is very busy,  his view of the angus has a large number of small breeders totally fed up with the epd business,  the whole herd paper work, the dna requirements ( read that as COST) and the current state of the St. Joe office and many are going to the sim and chi breeds. 
I enjoy my cows and keep a fair amount of the papers current but I have no use for the reds and their whole herd reporting.  I get zero help from Denton buying, selling or promoting.  There hasn't been a new bull found, born or manmade so papers are just another expense.  With high prices it ain't a killer but even so bull buyers don't want them.
  I'm about ready to declare a pox on both their houses

 

[cbcr]

by cowman 52: "Had a conversation with a Friend who hauls 90 percent registered cattle from sales all over the country.  His business is very busy,  his view of the angus has a large number of small breeders totally fed up with the epd business,  the whole herd paper work, the dna requirements ( read that as COST) and the current state of the St. Joe office and many are going to the sim and chi breeds."

Simmental has a Whole Herd reporting program that is $15 per breeding age female.  With the Chianina Association, it cost $25 to register a calf under 150 days.  How would going to these registries make it any better?  The only thing with the Angus that would be different is the additional cost of the bull certificate.

If producers want to lower costs and are not interested in EPDs then why not look at the Composite Beef Cattle Registry?  The cost to register an animal under 240 days of age is $10, no requirement of a bull certificate.  If a producer does want EPDs then they can use the whole herd reporting program which will cost them $10 per breeding age female and then they can register any resulting offspring for 1/2 the current rate $5.

The Composite Beef Cattle Registry www.compositebeef.com and the Composite Dairy Cattle Registry www.dairycattleregistry.com were created to help producers.  Registration is open to ALL BREEDS. 

The Composite Beef Cattle Registry is open to all cattle producers that have a need for registering their animals to identify, track, document and maintain the ancestry of past generations and future offspring. Through performance testing, we provide true multi-breed genetic evaluations to breeders on traits that allows for comparing of animals regardless of breed composition.

The Composite Beef Cattle Registry offers an affordable and efficient system to register cattle of any breed or combination of breeds. We also register cattle that do not qualify for registration in a registry due to percentage of blood, the breed crosses, or the breed herdbook is closed or there is no registry.

The Composite Dairy Cattle Registry represents many of the "non-traditional" dairy breeds in North America (USA and Canada) of Milking Fleckvieh, Montbeliarde, Norwegian Red, Red Dane, Swedish Red and White, Finnish Ayrshire and other dairy crosses.

The Composite Dairy Cattle Registry has members from both the USA and Canada and is having interest from other countries of being able to offer registration services to breeders of crossbred cattle and breeds in those countries.