Red Angus marbling

[knabe]

How is a red angus calf recorded if they are out of two black angus parents?

with a tape recorder?

 

[nate53]

List a couple red angus herds or some sires that will match up or beat the best in the black angus breed (at marbling).  I don't think there is any but I maybe wrong?

Spoken and believed just as a black angus follower.  It is widely proven (you can google as well as I can) that red angus marble better than the blacks. Current research shows that the gap is widening; maybe because of the direction each breed has taken?. 
If you re-read your statement, you even almost admit it  And I quote, "that will match up or beat the BEST in the black angus breed"...  I am sure their are outliers in the black angus breed that will beat the red angus or any other breed, but as a total breed no. 
In fact, due to the fact that the red angus breed is a THR (total herd reporting) breed, every single animal is recorded and counts in the tabulation of EPD's. The black angus breed only reports their "best" animals, so the breeds true reflection is not obtained. I realize this is a hard thing for the black angus breed to defend or even "justify" and I am not really saying that one is better than the other (ok, I probably am!) but that is the fact about each breed. 

Maybe if the blacks would focus on their breed improvement and not so much the fad of the year, they might catch back up. And maybe the house cleaning the breed did a few months ago is a good start. Time will tell.

Uh, sorry but I couldn't care less which breed in general marbles better.  It's like being in Florida during a hurricane or rainy period and saying generally it's very sunny here.  Stack the best sires of each breed against each other for this trait and see who wins.  I admitted nothing, only left the door open for a knowledgeable person to answer what I could not.  I don't know that much about the red angus breed that's why I said I maybe wrong.  The black angus breed is anything and everything, so in general terms it's all over the place trying to be the best at everything (so generalities don't work very well with it).

The statement red angus marbles better than black angus is meaningless. 

List a red angus herd or bulls that can match up with Green Garden Angus bulls for marbling.  Simple just list.

Lastly it is not widely proven that you can google as well as I can.

 

[knabe]

but narrowly?

 

[BTDT]

How is a red angus calf recorded if they are out of two black angus parents?

The owner would register the calf using the black angus parents registration numbers, then hit the "red" color option. 
Just as someone would register a crossbred calf.... using the registration number if the parent has one, and if not, list as commercial (I think that is represented with an X)

 

[BTDT]

List a couple red angus herds or some sires that will match up or beat the best in the black angus breed (at marbling).  I don't think there is any but I maybe wrong?

Spoken and believed just as a black angus follower.  It is widely proven (you can google as well as I can) that red angus marble better than the blacks. Current research shows that the gap is widening; maybe because of the direction each breed has taken?. 
If you re-read your statement, you even almost admit it  And I quote, "that will match up or beat the BEST in the black angus breed"...  I am sure their are outliers in the black angus breed that will beat the red angus or any other breed, but as a total breed no. 
In fact, due to the fact that the red angus breed is a THR (total herd reporting) breed, every single animal is recorded and counts in the tabulation of EPD's. The black angus breed only reports their "best" animals, so the breeds true reflection is not obtained. I realize this is a hard thing for the black angus breed to defend or even "justify" and I am not really saying that one is better than the other (ok, I probably am!) but that is the fact about each breed. 

Maybe if the blacks would focus on their breed improvement and not so much the fad of the year, they might catch back up. And maybe the house cleaning the breed did a few months ago is a good start. Time will tell.

Uh, sorry but I couldn't care less which breed in general marbles better.  It's like being in Florida during a hurricane or rainy period and saying generally it's very sunny here.  Stack the best sires of each breed against each other for this trait and see who wins.  I admitted nothing, only left the door open for a knowledgeable person to answer what I could not.  I don't know that much about the red angus breed that's why I said I maybe wrong.  The black angus breed is anything and everything, so in general terms it's all over the place trying to be the best at everything (so generalities don't work very well with it).

The statement red angus marbles better than black angus is meaningless. 

List a red angus herd or bulls that can match up with Green Garden Angus bulls for marbling.  Simple just list.

Lastly it is not widely proven that you can google as well as I can.

So do you want to slaughter the actual bulls or do you want kill sheets or are you going by EPD's?  I am of the older generation so if your younger than 40, I am SURE you can google better than I!! 

 

[RyanChandler]

How is a red angus calf recorded if they are out of two black angus parents?

The owner would register the calf using the black angus parents registration numbers, then hit the "red" color option. 
Just as someone would register a crossbred calf.... using the registration number if the parent has one, and if not, list as commercial (I think that is represented with an X)

Does the red calf out of two black parents get the same registration status in the red angus herdbook as if it was sired by two red angus parents?

 

[knabe]

Are there any red angus that didn't come from black angus?

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

List a couple red angus herds or some sires that will match up or beat the best in the black angus breed (at marbling).  I don't think there is any but I maybe wrong?

Spoken and believed just as a black angus follower.  It is widely proven (you can google as well as I can) that red angus marble better than the blacks. Current research shows that the gap is widening; maybe because of the direction each breed has taken?. 
If you re-read your statement, you even almost admit it  And I quote, "that will match up or beat the BEST in the black angus breed"...  I am sure their are outliers in the black angus breed that will beat the red angus or any other breed, but as a total breed no. 
In fact, due to the fact that the red angus breed is a THR (total herd reporting) breed, every single animal is recorded and counts in the tabulation of EPD's. The black angus breed only reports their "best" animals, so the breeds true reflection is not obtained. I realize this is a hard thing for the black angus breed to defend or even "justify" and I am not really saying that one is better than the other (ok, I probably am!) but that is the fact about each breed. 

Maybe if the blacks would focus on their breed improvement and not so much the fad of the year, they might catch back up. And maybe the house cleaning the breed did a few months ago is a good start. Time will tell.

Uh, sorry but I couldn't care less which breed in general marbles better.  It's like being in Florida during a hurricane or rainy period and saying generally it's very sunny here.  Stack the best sires of each breed against each other for this trait and see who wins.  I admitted nothing, only left the door open for a knowledgeable person to answer what I could not.  I don't know that much about the red angus breed that's why I said I maybe wrong.  The black angus breed is anything and everything, so in general terms it's all over the place trying to be the best at everything (so generalities don't work very well with it).

The statement red angus marbles better than black angus is meaningless. 

List a red angus herd or bulls that can match up with Green Garden Angus bulls for marbling.  Simple just list.

Lastly it is not widely proven that you can google as well as I can.

How about a Shorthorn herd? 

 

[RyanChandler]

Or Holsteins?

 

[nate53]

BTDT:  kill sheets on progeny, scan data would be nice to see but can be unreliable, epd's can be valuable in the right program.

Davis:  List a shorthorn herd or sire if u want.  Personally I don't know of one that will match up let alone beat the angus on marbling.  Not to say there isn't one or some, very few seem to know what they can do.  None of the shorthorns that I have match up.  They have other qualities that I need but as far as marbling they don't match up with the angus we had been using.

Xbar:  Some of our cows are amerifax, for the most part the calves grade good to excellent.  But cow size is some what of an issue.  As far as pure holsteins, where we sell the calves on grid they don't kill them very often.  Is there a shorty holstein mixture?

So list some Red angus or shorty bulls that will match up.  What is the top marbling bull in the red angus breed?  Put some sires up instead of just saying they are the best at marbling in general.  My point was not to say they aren't the best, but to say list the bulls that make it the best.

By the way I don't google!

 

[CAB]

5L Advocate is the breed's #1 marbling bull.

 

[RyanChandler]

Xbar:  Some of our cows are amerifax, for the most part the calves grade good to excellent.  But cow size is some what of an issue.  As far as pure holsteins, where we sell the calves on grid they don't kill them very often.  Is there a shorty holstein mixture?

What do you mean by they don't kill them very often?

I've always been under the impression that Holsteins and jerseys marbled better than any breed but because they were such poor converters it wasn't profitable to feed them to grade that way

 

[nate53]

Xbar:  Some of our cows are amerifax, for the most part the calves grade good to excellent.  But cow size is some what of an issue.  As far as pure holsteins, where we sell the calves on grid they don't kill them very often.  Is there a shorty holstein mixture?

What do you mean by they don't kill them very often?

I've always been under the impression that Holsteins and jerseys marbled better than any breed but because they were such poor converters it wasn't profitable to feed them to grade that way

I know at different times in the past they would take pure holsteins but it would just be now and then.  We hauled some of them.  I'm not sure if they even take them at all now (they may)?  I think it was more about the size of the different cuts, and the larger size of the carcasses. There is discounts for 1050 lb. carcass or bigger.  They like a certain cut to fit in a certain box.  Marbling wasn't an issue just size.

http://www.uspremiumbeef.com/ProducerEducationForum.aspx  there is a bit of good info on this site.  Nothing that I saw about holsteins but plenty about beef cattle.

 

[RyanChandler]

The only reason you see those huge carcasses on Holsteins is because most people don't know how to feed them.  They have a 20% higher energy requirement than beef breeds and had to be fed accordingly.


Thanks for the link-


http://fyi.uwex.edu/wbic/files/2010/11/Yield-and-Quality-of-Holstein-Beef.pdf

 

[knabe]

So if the extra gut and liver are a source of the maintenance requirements, why do we need beef cattle with big guts and organ capacity. Perhaps this alone accounts for efficiency in lower gutted cattle but hinders their wda so finding the balance of that regardless of phenotype has utility. Perhaps all 3 phenotypes can do it and there's no interactive and just an additive effect.

 

[librarian]

Yes thanks for those links.
Here is the one i found most helpful, because I do not grain finish.
Look to genetics for marbling indicators http://www.uspremiumbeef.com/DocumentItem.aspx?ID=15

But what fascinates me is fetal programing.
Manage cow nutrition.  (from Recipe for Marbling http://www.uspremiumbeef.com/DocumentItem.aspx?ID=69)

University of Nebraska research has demonstrated a fetal programming effect
on calves during gestation, where supplementation of cows grazing winter range or cornstalks with just one
pound per day of a 28% distillers based cube during the last trimester increased percent Choice by 23%
and upper 2/3 Choice by 20% in steer calves at harvest. The nutrition of the cow this winter can profoundly
affect the marbling of the unborn calf that will calve next spring and then harvest over a year later.

Seems like this is similar to calving later in the summer when the cows are fat on grass (in a perfect world with plenty of grass)

AND, back to the other phylogenetic stuff.  If Shorthorns came over from Holland and were "improved" in England, then why would Angus, a breed native to Scotland, be so close to them genetically?