Red Angus question

[DL]

I am pretty carefull who I deal with when I add a bull to our listing. I deal with breeders that I know and trust. I have rejected bulls from some individuals that I don't trust simply for that reason.
The premise that the breed was based on is good, it's the tainted information that has made the data less than reliable in my opinion.
If you do not turn a BW in the calf will be assigned breed average EPD's and register the calf. If you do not turn in a WW, they will "preregister" the calf but it will become a cat II if the data is not completed.
In the past 30+ years that I have been around the breed I have seen several bulls numbers change drastically. Some were BW EPDs and some were MILK EPDs. Recently a fairly popular bulls MILK numbers took a serious drop. This was a 7 year old bull with accuracies in the high 60's. Makes me go Hmmmmm.
As far as my experience with my heifers and having to assist the calves, the heifers were all 1/2 to 3/4 sibs, all managed the same. They were all AI bred to 3 different bulls and then cleaned up with one of the bulls that was also one of the AI sires. 2 out of 22 required assistance. Maybe they would have needed help bred to one of the other bulls as well but I found it odd that they were both out of the same AI sire and were the only ones that needed assistance. Maybe a coincidence, but I will probably not use those genetics again in my herd to find out. [quote/]


Actually RW Hobo was born in 1989 so he ain't 30 yet! One doesn't have to be an ancient bull to have high accuracies - Ole's Oscar is a 2002 model with > 90% accuracy and 602 contemporary groups. Younger bulls are more likely to have lower accuracy based on the fact they have fewer progeny

IMHO your "high accuracy" BW is pretty meaningless unless accompanied by a high accuracy CE - an 80 pound square calf is much more likely to be a problem than an 80 pound long headed slim shouldered calf.

Further EPDs are actually comparisons - not absolute values but variations around a preset base - one would expect EPDs to change based on information provided and the formula used to calculate the specific EPD-

A large number (thousands and often millions) of calculations are performed by computers that ultimately result in an EPD. In order to perform these calculations so that results are unbiased and predict only genetic differences, data need to be adjusted for any known non-genetic effects. This is done in two ways. The first is by preadjusting the data for environmental factors with known effects, such as age of dam and calf age. The second is through the formation of contemporary groups and
using those classifications in the data analysis.

When information from different contemporary groups or different breeders is added one would expect a change and 70 % accuracy is merely an expression of reliability - of the EPD - not the fact that it shouldn't change

for example a BW of 2 with an accuracy of 70% says that 70 % of the time the calf will weigh 2 lbs greater than the breed average (it also says that 30% of the time if will weigh something different but it doesn't say that the EPD itself will not change -

According to the RAAA BW data is not mandatory (WW and CE is) but they do not adjust or calculate a BW when one is not given - EPDs  provide a tool that can be used when making decisions about breeding

 

[aj]

I have never seen a frame score 9 bull pictured from Denver in the late 80's. Never seen one. There were all kinds of 9 frame Angus pictures. There are all kinds of Shorthorn frame 9 bulls. The show ring screwed STUFF up. There was chianina blood all over the afore mentioned breeds. There was Holstein all over the Angus breed. The Red Angus breed did not chase the exotic cattle for frame size. They reported data and made themselves better through continual natural selection pressure. If you don't think that raising 9 frame Angus was screwing a breed up you are mentally challenged.

 

[redsimmsnangus]

I am always astounded by those who look only at BW and ignore the CED EPD's.  There are a lot of low BW bulls in the Red Angus breed with horrible calving ease numbers.  You have to look at the big picture!  I also won't trust a "fire and ice" mating (very popular lately to make those great big spread bulls) for CE until the bull has some years on him.  I've seen too many of these go south. BIG PICTURE!

 

[cowman 52]

I was going to say........that it was only a matter of time before the "Show Ring" screws up the Red Angus.

Let's be a little careful here,  ain't nothing harder to sell than a bull or cow that ain't worth a darn regardless of the numbers. And I'm not real sure is has not happened already. A genetic base about as deep as the kids wadding pool, all these GREAT bulls that after just a short time just disappear from view, and too many " breeders" who have milked it for all it's worth and disappeared as well.

 

[Mill Iron A]

You are exactly right aj, those people that chased frame were chasing ribbons so thanks for proving my point. There were still people just going to show off what they had, granted there were few that didn't chase frame and maybe they didn't show at a national level bit at its core philosophy the show ring is a place for breeders to gather and look at other stock. Your constant complaints are about abuses of the show ring....now more than ever I see people who will just show the cattle they want to raise to promote them not win a ribbon.

 

[BTDT]

Selecting breeding cattle is no different than anything else. You have to decide what you want to produce, then find someone who has it, and then finally decide if you trust that person.
Beware of breeders who do not have a history of success.  Just because they appear "out of nowhere" and purchase cattle does not make them a successful breeder. And in my opinion managing a herd with someone else's money does NOT make them a successful breeder! I guess each person has to determine what makes one "trustworthy".

You can not have EPD's work both ways. You can not promote and brag about a WW or a YW, and in the same breath discredit a BW. Red Angus is a total herd reporting association. Yes, they may assign an "average" epd based on their pedigree to BW if not reported, but the animal is NOT registered until data is submitted and a bw is reported, a cow is removed from activity if no calves are reported. Unlike the black angus breed (and others) who only report the animals they WANT to report, reds report them ALL. 

I have dealt with many red breeders and they own scales. They weigh at birth and weaning and yearling.  If you, rcr, know "many" breeders who fake numbers, you might want to consider changing the breeders you hang out with.  I do not have my head in the sand so I believe some breeders fake numbers, but I do not associate with them or purchase livestock from them.

I do not know rcr, but his semen catalog has a few bulls and most go back to old genetics, and most are owned by himself or his business partners.  So he does have a financial incentive to recommend his bulls, which is perfectly ok, as long as it is out in the open.  In fact, why promote a bull if one doesn't have an incentive to sell semen? (ABS, Genex, Select Sires, Cattle Visions promote bulls... they own some, but it is listed in the catalog and they also include bulls they do not own a part of, but do get a commission)  I do believe a semen catalog should list ALL the information available, including defect status, EPD's, accuracies, pedigree, owners, and actual weight information.  I also believe that if that information is not listed it is bad, and the person should hit the breed website to find the information.

As far as using old genetics, there are a few bloodlines that deserve to be kept alive. One of rcr associates is still promoting a bull that was born in 1994, another from 2004, I do not care for either of them, but to say old genetics should not be used when in fact, your promoting old genetics is a bit of hypocrisy. How old is heat seeker, heatwave or ali?  What about meyer 734?  DL might be on to something!

Back to the original question: Look at your heifers, and judge how big of calf they can have. Then, decide what you are trying to produce.  Talk to people who you trust and see what they would recommend. Hit the semen catalogs and call people who have had calves from the bulls you are considering. Make your decision, manage your heifers correctly, and wait for calving.

I wish you luck and just in case no one said it yet, "Thanks for choosing Red Angus."

 

[Red Cow Relocators]

Selecting breeding cattle is no different than anything else. You have to decide what you want to produce, then find someone who has it, and then finally decide if you trust that person.
Beware of breeders who do not have a history of success.  Just because they appear "out of nowhere" and purchase cattle does not make them a successful breeder. And in my opinion managing a herd with someone else's money does NOT make them a successful breeder! I guess each person has to determine what makes one "trustworthy".

You can not have EPD's work both ways. You can not promote and brag about a WW or a YW, and in the same breath discredit a BW. Red Angus is a total herd reporting association. Yes, they may assign an "average" epd based on their pedigree to BW if not reported, but the animal is NOT registered until data is submitted and a bw is reported, a cow is removed from activity if no calves are reported. Unlike the black angus breed (and others) who only report the animals they WANT to report, reds report them ALL. 

I have dealt with many red breeders and they own scales. They weigh at birth and weaning and yearling.  If you, rcr, know "many" breeders who fake numbers, you might want to consider changing the breeders you hang out with.  I do not have my head in the sand so I believe some breeders fake numbers, but I do not associate with them or purchase livestock from them.

I do not know rcr, but his semen catalog has a few bulls and most go back to old genetics, and most are owned by himself or his business partners.  So he does have a financial incentive to recommend his bulls, which is perfectly ok, as long as it is out in the open.  In fact, why promote a bull if one doesn't have an incentive to sell semen? (ABS, Genex, Select Sires, Cattle Visions promote bulls... they own some, but it is listed in the catalog and they also include bulls they do not own a part of, but do get a commission)  I do believe a semen catalog should list ALL the information available, including defect status, EPD's, accuracies, pedigree, owners, and actual weight information.  I also believe that if that information is not listed it is bad, and the person should hit the breed website to find the information.

As far as using old genetics, there are a few bloodlines that deserve to be kept alive. One of rcr associates is still promoting a bull that was born in 1994, another from 2004, I do not care for either of them, but to say old genetics should not be used when in fact, your promoting old genetics is a bit of hypocrisy. How old is heat seeker, heatwave or ali?  What about meyer 734?  DL might be on to something!

Back to the original question: Look at your heifers, and judge how big of calf they can have. Then, decide what you are trying to produce.  Talk to people who you trust and see what they would recommend. Hit the semen catalogs and call people who have had calves from the bulls you are considering. Make your decision, manage your heifers correctly, and wait for calving.

I wish you luck and just in case no one said it yet, "Thanks for choosing Red Angus."

Just to clarify - yes I do own some of the bulls in the catalog. Out of the 21 bulls listed I own Walkerton 10W, a bull I bought in Canada at $12,500 for 1/2 interest, Cash 29Z, another Canadian purchase who was the high selling yearling RA bull in the Blair Ag 2013 sale, Glacier 200U a bull I purchased 1/2 interest in, Crimson Tide and Absolute Power are also a pair of bulls that I own  a 1/20th of an interest in each bull and the Navigator bull is one that I raised.
I do not print defect status as I will not list a carrier bull of any kind of genetic defect.
I don't personally believe that BW EPD's are any more manipulated than the WW and YW EPD's are, they are all to a point corrupt. NO WHERE did I state that the people manipulating the numbers are people that I, as you stated, hang around with. I actually tend to get as far from them as I can.
If you for one second believe that I am getting rich offering these bulls to the public, I will sell you the business for what you think it's worth. My cut of the gross proceeds from most of the bulls that I carry averages $2.50 to $3.00 a straw. At that rate I would have to sell over 1000 units of semen to cover the cost of printing the catalog, another 400 units to cover the postage and that doesn't account for any time that I put into the business of my own. I started the business because I was tired of seeing 16 "politically correct" bulls most of whom were closely related to one another listed in the major sire summaries. The gene pool is small enough that it is a challenge not to stack up several closely related animals. We have 4 half brothers listed in our original print of the catalog, next year there won't be.
I don't believe I have ever said there was anything wrong with using some of the old genetics. I stated that if DL wanted to use them because they had high accuracies that was her choice but that I hoped that the breed as a whole had made some genetic progress. The simple fact is that some bulls are born before their time.
At the end of the day, here is the deal. Every bull that I have listed is a bull that I would or have used personally. I am trying to offer different genetics than what is offered by the mainstream bull studs. If you are happy with the bulls that are offered else where by all means use them. If you are looking for something different, I would invite you to see if we offer anything that would work for you. If we don't that is fine as well.

 

[DL]

yup BTDT I believe I am on to something! I know what I want (in terms of phenotype, temperament, structure, eye appeal etc) and I believe I know how to get it. I know what works in  my area and with my management and I steer clear of the "bull of the month"- getting here however was a "learning curve" 

I want high accuracy calving ease bulls because I don't want to pull calves and I want to give my heifers the very best chance for success so they can become productive members of the herd

When picking a bull I do my homework and I know my cows - I look at the bull, look at his daughters (evaluate their structure, udders and disposition), review the EPDs, talk to the owners and other people with knowledge and make a decision - I don't buy from people I don't trust or people who seem to slant the information or commit the "sin of omission" (burned once, not again) - I was fortunate to buy some Hobo semen from the Buffalo Creek Dispersal, as well as some Choctaw Chief 373 (yes RW he was born in 1965) as well as some Julian B571 sons including 84S - I am very pleased with my Hobo females - as someone once mentioned to me "he doesn't do one thing exceptionally but he does everything well" - this picture from winter 2013 is a Hobo cow out of a Heavenly 8141 cow - the next picture is the same cow with her 7 week old Red Hill Julian 84S heifer. Looking forward to 2014 calves as my bred heifers are sired by Hobo, Oscar and 84S bred to 84S, Hobo, and Oscar