retaining flushes

[King Cattle Co.]

While looking for heifers at sales and online sales ive been kind of turnned off by the special terms of the sale that they want to retain 2 flushes on all the heifers in the sale...i feel I could understand a few in the sale. I just felt like if they wanted to keep all those gem tics they maybe shouldn't sell them all. Or dont get mad at me when I dont want to pay top dollar for a heifer I like when i might have to let them flush it. Needless to say, I didnt  buy any that were retaining flushes.. just looking for other thoughts on this, thanks

 

[kanshow]

It really depends on how well I know the seller.  Most of the time, the flush never happens and if it does, its supposed to be at the convenience of the buyer.  Also, look at the details of the flush..  does it specify number of embryos?  We have purchase several with a retained flush and its not been a problem yet, but as I said, I've always made sure I know the seller and have a good feeling about the deal.

 

[FriedgesCharolais]

I completely agree with you about it turning a buyer off of the calf but I don't think many of these flushes ever actually happen. They are just covering themselves in case one of them win a big show. Saying that I would be willing to bet that if they really do collect on the flush that the calf is already being flushed by the buyer otherwise I don't see a reason why they would collect on a flush.

 

[Mill Iron A]

I'm offering some purebred females to a friend and his business partner. I'm opening up to some of my top females but on them I'm retaining 50% embryo interest. If I didn not retain that interest I would not let him buy my top females so it's a give and take. You have to be fair though, to me if I think my bred heifer is worth $10k I would only ask for $5k with these terms.

 

[justintime]

I have seen so many people back away from buying a female, simply because the seller wants to retain a flush even at the buyers convenience, that I have come to the conclusion that it probably does nothing to help the sale of the animals. In regards, to keeping a flush in all the heifers in a sale, I think this is a sign of a seller getting too greedy. If the seller wants me to pay a good price for his females, why can't they come back to me and offer to purchase a flush if they want one?
Two years ago, I was working as a sale rep at a sale and I was able to get a very good bid on a couple females in the sale. Shortly before the sale started, I received a phone call from this person and they told me they were withdrawing their bids, because they had not seen at the seller was retaining the right to flush females in the sale. I could not change this persons mind, and as a result, I lost the bids. I am quite sure I could have purchased both females because they both sold for considerably less than the bids I had got originally. Since then I have oftentimes wondered how many times this actually happens. I have seen it happen more than once. I used to retain the right to flush certain females I sold, but do not do it now. I feel if the female is worthy of being flushed, I can buy a flush back from the owner. If that is not possible I can always buy some of her progeny.

 

[caledon101]

I am certain that professional sale managers would like to see an end to all these of sale conditions. It has the potential to create a complicated mess for them.
Also, when you are importing your purchases, the whole retained ET option becomes even more challenging and expensive. Canadians have far less semen sire options to select from than our US counterparts. I guarantee you that that almost all breeders in the USA don't realize this. They think we have access to the same semen they have.
I bet if you asked the seller BEFORE the sale begins to waive all ET conditions most would do it; they don't want to lose any potential bidders or buyers.
Also, make sure you are crystal clear on "retained show rights". If the seller exercises their right to keep the animal and drag it around the country all fall make sure you aren't billed for it. And, the risk of injury or illness increases on the road; insurance becomes even more important.
I wish people would just sell the damn things, cash the cheque and as JIT says, show up at our door to BUY a flush back to support their customer.
Genetic defect updates that are not in the catalogue along with any show or flush condition modifications need to be obtained in writing. It avoids any misunderstanding or confusion months down the road.
I am starting to see a switch away from the usual "seller retains the right to one flush at sellers expense and buyers convenience" to more specific wording "seller retains the right to 6 transferable eggs" and so on. So, does that mean they have the right to flush MY female more than once to get 6 eggs if they have to??
I think most of us go to a sale to buy a replacement animal, not a partnership with a vendor.

 

[uluru]

I agree with JIT and Caledon 101
All those conditions have discouraged me from bidding on many occasions.
Particularly when bidding from Canada on US sales.

 

[GoWyo]

Many of the terms used are also vague.  If a seller is selling a one-half embryo interest, does that mean the the purchaser of that interest gets one-half of all flushes, gets every other flush, gets the gross income from a flush, pays half the cost of unsuccessful flushes or flushes that are not what the buyer would flush to, and who pays for the feed and maintenance of the female if it is only an embryo interest?  When is a flush ever convenient to the buyer?  Cow has a calf and needs to get in shape to breed back and have another calf within a year of the previous calf -- it is never convenient unless the female is being flushed and held out of the normal calving cycle for  a period of time.

 

[caledon101]

The once exception might be bull sales. When a breeder commits to consign his entire, sale worthy bull calf crop to an annual sale with no private treaty sales or hold backs in advance, then I believe that breeder can't be criticized for wanting to retain a possible semen interest.

Here's what I would like sellers to consider; on those sale females you always tells us "you hate to part with" in the footnotes. .....why not do something really positive and make the solid commitment that you are willing to buy back her first calf on the condition that is: a heifer, is healthy and, in good condition at weaning time for a pre-announced percentage of the final price bid.
Now THAT would allow the seller to retain the genetics that he just "hates to part with" while actually supporting his customer. That customer would know he has an opportunity to obtain a return on his investment.

 

[King Cattle Co.]

I wouldn't have a problem so much about semen interest on a bull. it just seems to me that it if I bought a heifer that was good enough to flush that after she has a calf I am going to want to flush her myself, or get her bred back quickly. that said I don't see how it would ever really be convenient for me to hold up my operation just so they can flush it. How much will it cost me to not have her not bred, or putting embryos in MY tank?
I would say if they seriously think that they might want to flush her, the at sellers expense should include a  "INconvenience"payment to cover that time period that I am getting nothing out of the female that I bought. Otherwise why would I not just say that it is never "convenient". If that is going to be the outcome, the seller may as well not even try and reserve the right

 

[Simmentalgov78]

Some of it is just a marketing scam. The seller wants you to think the heifer is so good that want to keep the genetics from it. they do this in hopes that the animal will fetch a higher price. You see it alot with big time breeders.

 

[dutch pride]

I was hoping that someone from the "selling" side would comment on why they think it is a good idea.

DLZ

 

[HVF]

From a sellers perspective with less than 40 cows when I sell females they are by best and with limited numbers it is hard to let go of the whole female.  If I was selling by bottom end there would be no need to retain any part of a female.

 

[caledon101]

HVF.....the majority of purebred producers have around the same number of cows as you do....or even less.
If it's hard to let a good one go then don't; retain the female.

From the buyers perspective they could present a similar argument. They have 40 cows, or less, and can't afford to take almost every good female they purchase out of production to make them available for the seller to flush.
If these sale females you are consigning are really that good then sit back, wait for the customer to produce a top calf, and then show up and buy it. In the end it might even be less costly than exercising your ET sale condition. And, what a great way to support a customer and build relationships? The reality is that a good number of all these high priced calves will not go on to realize the high expectations.

The purebred industry has to remain and/or become more customer centric. Especially if the industry wants to attract new investment from inexperienced hobbyist's and enthusiasts.
It shouldn't be a "buyer beware" culture. We are dealing with live animals which is enough risk. Full disclosure re: genetic testing and results is important. JMO

 

[BTDT]

I do not buy anything that I do not control or own 100%.  I do not care who it is.  Many friendships have been ruined by doing that and I value my friendships more.

A VERY "famous" shorthorn breeder retains practically everything but the feeding rights on every female and bull they sell, including cloning and DNA rights.  And yet, if I am not mistaken, they have one of the top sales in the country every year.  I would NEVER purchase an animal from them since it appears they want everyone to do the daily work, and then when it is successful, they want to swoop in and flush, clone, etc and make the money.  WHY would ANYONE do business with such a farm??

 

[caledon101]

BTDT......couldn't agree more.

 

[ploughshare]

I concur with BTDT 100%. Retained anything makes for bad business relationships.  Why would anyone pay good money to raise someone's future donor.  Many will place conditions such as at least 6 #1 eggs, or two flushes or ???.  Same goes for cloning rights.  I will walk each time, regardless how good the animal. 

 

[caledon101]

From the buyers perspective, it actually makes me wonder why they feel it is necessary to retain genetic rights. Is this the sellers way of telling the industry they don't have anything else at home to work with or flush??
As I said, let them come back and pay for a flush or, for a live calf and actually support the customer. When enough potential buyers walk away from these added terms and conditions the marketplace will adjust.

 

[CJB]

From the buyers perspective, it actually makes me wonder why they feel it is necessary to retain genetic rights. Is this the sellers way of telling the industry they don't have anything else at home to work with or flush??
As I said, let them come back and pay for a flush or, for a live calf and actually support the customer. When enough potential buyers walk away from these added terms and conditions the marketplace will adjust.

Saw these as terms in a couple recent catalogs.
 
*** reserves the right to flush any female selling at the buyer’s convenience.  If this option is selected, *** will pay the buyer $2,000 for this right!
&
*** is confident in the quality of every female selling here and would like to have access to them while rewarding our customers for ownership. To this end, *** reserves the right to flush any female in this offering during the next 48 months. For this privilege and potential inconvenience *** will pay new owners $4,000 + flush/semen expense for a flush producing not less than six good embryos.

Still not a huge fan of retained flushes, but this seems to be going in the right direction.  I like the 2nd one better, because there are some actual terms to it in regards to a timeline and # of eggs.