Rising sun

[3 Eagles shorthorns]

I just came across this ad. What is the story on this bull? Looks to me that he would produce some deep, easy fleshing daughters.

 

[aj]

Was this in the Shorthorn country? It always scares me when people start talking about 900 pound weaning weights. I almost disregard this bull because of that. Maybe he was on a silage ration since the age of 60 days?

 

[RyanChandler]

I agree its somewhat deceiving to promote adjusted weaning weights but that seems to be industry standard.  The bull was likely weighed at the minimum 120 days and then his adg (as calculated up to that point) applied to days 120 through 210 to arrive at an adjusted weaning weight number. 

He looks like a pretty good bull to me.  His dam looks like a pretty heavy cow so as long as you have the forage to support cows of that size it could be a good deal for you to look into using him. 

 

[oakview]

He looks like he could contribute some positive traits even though he does not have that pronounced wedge shape.  His dam looks deeper fronted than in the flank, so she doesn't meet the reverse wedge shape criteria, still a good cow anyway.  A great cattle breeder once told me never apologize for performance.  If it fits the management situation, heavier calves bring more dollars than light ones.

 

[RyanChandler]

Look at you, Oak-- getting better by the day at identifying functional beef cattle characteristics!  Keep up the good work- it won't be long and you'll be talking about calving intervals and weaning weight %'s!

 

[oakview]

Relax.  I'm just having some fun with this wedge shape thing.  It's just pretty far down on my list of criteria when I pick breeding stock.  I like some symmetry, not the shape of the Holstein bull pictured somewhere else.  In fact, I've never looked at an animal of any species and picked one out because of its wedge shape or reverse wedge shape.  I feed them and take care of them so I decide what I want to look at.  If somebody else likes something different, good for them.

I did not know Ric Hoyt well, but several years ago he judged the National Show at Louisville.  His comment about performance was simply that the cattle that were handled the way most of the show cattle he evaluated were would grow much faster and get bigger than if they were raised under range conditions.  Likewise, the range cattle would likely grow much faster if they were handled like show cattle.  No matter what the genetics are.  I say give the bull credit for his ability to perform, regardless of how he was grown.  He still had to have the genetic capability to do it.     

 

[Duncraggan]

Good point there oakview!

 

[huntaway]

Not sure your comparing apples with apples here. He is an Australian bull and although adjusted weights are used for EBV's they aren't really published. I wouldn't know the adjusted weight of any bull I've produced in the last 10 years. This is probably the raw weaning weight which could be taken at a wide range of age and feeding so like in another thread it comes down to context I guess.

Saw a small number of sons this year they look ok seem to have the volume you can see in the sire.
http://glenrossie.co.nz/shorthorn14011.html

 

[mbigelow]

My cousins Angus bull calves avaraged 850 at weaning this year with one in particular that weighed 1018lbs at 215 days old.  The cow weighed 1500lbs.  He also had a 105 lb bw.  They only get grass an salt. 

 

[librarian]

I was thinking similar about Angus. If you want easy fleshing just get a good OCC bull
Those Argentinians are using Anchor heavily and their goal is frame 4 cows- not sure on what weight at frame 4. For me, it would be hard to beat a herd of Anchor x Leader cows.

 

[aj]

In my opinion you are wasting your life if your breeding program is based on increasing weaning weights. The BIF conference concluded that there has been no industry improvement in weaning weights for 24 years. There is little room for improvement there. Trying to increase this deal involves massive "milk cow" type milk genetics or artificial help.......like feeding silage to a 90 day old calf.

 

[vc]

Would it not depend on the environment, if you raise your cattle in an area with plenty of feed, heavy milking cows would give you an advantage, you could wean heavier calves, thus improving your bottom line. I think if you're running cows in the desert of Nevada, you are going to have cows that milk less and lower weaning weights, if you're running your cows where it takes an acre per cow, you can afford to have heavier milking cows. I'm sure there is a window for both, too little milk or too much in either environment, your goal would be cows that produce the right amount of milk for their environment, and still re breed and wean an acceptable calf.
In all instances there is a balance, so yes the average weaning weights have stayed the same as an average, but they are not the same for each environment.

 

[oakview]

I read on another thread that an Angus herd is weaning their bull calves at 800 pounds +.  I'll bet they weren't that heavy 25 years ago.  Does that mean that for every herd that has increased weaning weights like the Angus herd mentioned there's another herd that has lower weaning weights?  That has to be true if the average has stayed the same for that long, although it could be that the lower weaning weights are spread through many herds.  Could the stagnant weaning weights be due to excessive pressure on lowering birth weights?  Could the lack of increase be due to too much Angus breeding in commercial herds resulting in little or no heterosis?  Could a widespread desire to downsize the cow herd (smaller cows) be the culprit?  Our neighbors that used the early Simmentals were so impressed with the increased growth rate of the calves, they kept all their heifers and bred them back Simmental.  They did that again the next time around and had a base cow herd of 3/4 Simmental females.  These were the big, fullblood Simmentals, Signal Abricot, etc.  Some of those cows easily weighed close to a ton.  The cows that rebred raised a lot bigger calves than their granddams.  The neighbor's cows are still Simmental, but all black now.  They aren't anywhere near a ton, though still big.  If the general commercial cow herd has reduced in mature size, perhaps an accompanying lack of growth potential is contributing to steady weaning weights.  I know I can greatly influence the weaning weight of a calf just by the selection of the bull I use on the same cow from year to year.

 

[vc]

How many commercial producers know the birth weight/ weaning weight of their cattle, out west the calves aren't seen sometimes till weaning, if they are it is just for branding and castrating. Hard to give a true weaning weight when you don't know when the calf was born. Can't track the bull either since there is usually several bulls in each pasture. All they can truly evaluate is the cow and if she has a live calf and is re bred in that environment. They will know if the average weaning weight is higher or lower for each year, but is it the bull, the cow or the weather that factored in to it?

 

[oakview]

All those things are true for the range cattle producer.  If weaning weights have truly not increased over the past 24 years, industry wide, why pay attention to any growth EPDs?  Maybe the only EPD a commercial cattleman should look at is birth weight.  Maybe it's just a total waste of time to pay any attention to growth rate if commercial cattlemen aren't using them as a tool to improve performance.  If weaning weights have truly not increased for a quarter of a century, maybe people aren't using growth EPDs as selection criteria or they are not accurate.  I think it would be interesting to look at the data cited stating that weaning weights are just the same now as they were 24 years ago.  How large was the data pool?  Where was it collected?  Were there spikes and valleys from year to year or era to era?  Lots of questions.  I'd like to think at least our genetic potential for growth has improved since 1980.  Maybe not. 

 

[vc]

One would hope. Like every other business you would hope to maximize production without compromising your investment. Weather it be labor, tools, equipment or livestock, you want to meet their max productivity without burning them out.

 

[oakview]

Not so many years ago I used maybe 10 different bulls every year.  Ah, the wonders of AI.  There were a few that could not have far enough negative growth EPDs.  It would not be uncommon to have 100+ pounds difference at weaning from various sires.  It was a lot of fun to have calves by Windstar, Warhorse, Double Down, Jam's Uh-Huh, Data Bank, Outrageous, Ar-Su-Lu Maxwell, Remember Me, Capone, Dollar II, and Trump all in the same pasture, not to mention calves out of our own bulls. Some of those calves had absolutely no grow.  As I said, their growth EPDs could not be negative enough.  It's no way to build a cow herd, but I sure sold lots of calves.

 

[RyanChandler]

Weaning weighs, as a percentage of mature cow weight, have not increased.  I'm sure those big fullblood ton cows did wean huge calves but I guarantee you their weaning weight percentage was below embarassing!

 

[aj]

When cattle are weaned they usually are in a situation where have all they want to eat. Then according to the price of corn and other things they are allowed to explode in growth........on a higher energy ration. The ration that gets the most growth isn't always the most profitable ration either. Also.......currently.......feedlots seem to be pushing cattle to heavier harvest weights. With low interest rates......getting cattle done quickly isn't as important as when we had 12 % interest weights.

 

[oakview]

BIF (through AJ) has claimed weaning weights have not improved in 24 years.  AJ says increasing weaning weights involves many factors.  I see no mention of weaning weight as a percentage of cow weight improving or not improving.  If mature weights have increased over the past 24 years and weaning weight as a percentage of cow weight has stayed the same, then weaning weights have increased.  A 1,200 pound cow in 1982 weaning a calf at 50% of her weight would produce a 600 pound calf.  A 1,400 pound cow in 2016 that weans 50% of her weight would wean a 700 pound cow.  Weaning weights would have increased with the exact same % of cow weight.  I comprehend AJ's statement that weaning weights have not increased in 24 years, period.