RUMOR - Jakes proud jazz mulefoot carrier??

[aj]

For instance BS is 4w Casper a problem? Smarty pants. You can get to Dividend...Dividends impact. I see no reason to celebrate.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Rumors can be just as bad. It would be hard to have any solid information on this deal before the sales at Denver. I hope its all hogwash. I wonder what bull is the smoking gun if its all true? 

 

[knabe]

Don't really see the big deal.  Wait till the multiagency defects start coming out.

Lack of marbling or any desirable trait is a defect and will take more generations to fix than a recessive defect.

 

[Doc]

I wonder if JSF has a bunch of JPJ sons selling in Denver? Is the catalog out yet? Timing on this is about as bad as you could ask for. Back to the drawing board for alot of folks.  This sucks.

Here's the link to the catalog.  http://www.shorthorncountry.net/image/2011/Durhams%20for%20Denver/Jungels12_Layout1.pdf

 

[shortdawg]

There are some pretty good critters in that catalog !

 

[Doc]

There are some pretty good critters in that catalog !

There is some good looking bulls in the catalog. One thing I noticed is the number of bulls selling that have bwt's over 90 lbs. I mean the only Capiche(I think only one)son has a 96 lb bwt.  A lot of these bulls have BEPD's with neg. or less than 1 , even tho they have bwt's over 90 lbs. But yet they are being sold as calving ease sires?? So do you ignore the actual bwt & breed your hfrs to a bull with a .4 BEPD and roll the dice that you don't end up with a 98 lb bwt like it's sire(lot#30)?? 

 

[RyanChandler]

There are some pretty good critters in that catalog !

There is some good looking bulls in the catalog. One thing I noticed is the number of bulls selling that have bwt's over 90 lbs. I mean the only Capiche(I think only one)son has a 96 lb bwt.  A lot of these bulls have BEPD's with neg. or less than 1 , even tho they have bwt's over 90 lbs. But yet they are being sold as calving ease sires?? So do you ignore the actual bwt & breed your hfrs to a bull with a .4 BEPD and roll the dice that you don't end up with a 98 lb bwt like it's sire(lot#30)??  

I think it speaks to the validity of shorthorn epds in general.   90 lbs isn't calving ease.  I've calved enough heifers to know, unless youre gonna be there to watch em constantly, you're gonna have heifers lay down and die tryin to calve 90lbers.  I try to watch my heifers pretty close when theyre due but there is no way I would even consider a bull with a 90+lb bw.  I cannot check on them often enough to risk something like that.  
 From the catalogue: Cattlemen: If you are in need of bulls for heifer projects the bulls in this catalog fit as well as anything the industry has to offer.  Nearly every bull in the catalog ranks inthe top 1% for birthweight EPD in the breed. Gain heterosis and vigor on your black and red commercial females with a  JSF Bull.        What kind of guarantee comes with these kind of proclamations? Im telling yoiu now, that if I purchase a bull from Derek and he harps on the calving ease of the bull and I turn him out and have a  crop of 90lb trainwrecks, theres gonna be a problem. 

I like lot 6.

 

[shortdawg]

There are some pretty good critters in that catalog !

There is some good looking bulls in the catalog. One thing I noticed is the number of bulls selling that have bwt's over 90 lbs. I mean the only Capiche(I think only one)son has a 96 lb bwt.  A lot of these bulls have BEPD's with neg. or less than 1 , even tho they have bwt's over 90 lbs. But yet they are being sold as calving ease sires?? So do you ignore the actual bwt & breed your hfrs to a bull with a .4 BEPD and roll the dice that you don't end up with a 98 lb bwt like it's sire(lot#30)??   

I guess it really depends on the validity of the 90 ? Is it really a 90 or a 104 called a 90 ? Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning the validity of the numbers from Jungels, just making a statement in general. My JPJ son had a reported bw of 90# and I never had a calving problem out of him at all. My guess is if the biggest shorthorn bull being used really had a 90# bw we would probably not have near the calving ease issues we have in the breed today. JMHO which with a dollar will buy you a dollars worth at the dollar store  ;D

 

[knabe]

Why not breed up one of these shorties from a low bw Maine bull that is a red carrier.

Better yet, why not use a fullblood Maine low bw bull.  There may be a couple around pretty soon.

 

[vcsf]

Many people on here will not agree with me but I personally would much rather use a bull with a 90 pound birth weight from a herd with average birth weights of 95 pounds than a bull with only a 80 pound birth weight out of a herd where the average is 75 pounds.  What I am saying is that you need to look at where the bull ranks within the herd as management can play as big a role in birth weight as genetics.  We also need to remember that there is a lot more to calving ease than just birth weight.

Something that comes up on here fairly often that bothers me is when people in the southern states start to bash cattle born in the north because of their birthweights.  It is widely accepted and even scientifically backed up that the birth weight will increase the farther north that you go.  This is especially true in the case of spring born calves and the weather over winter can also affect birth weight greatly.  In the case of Jungel's calves born in the spring in North Dakota if you move 1000 miles south to Chandler's in Texas it is quite possible that the same calves would have been born ten pounds lighter.  Now would you consider the same bull genetically with an 80-85 pound birthweight but outright reject it at 90 pounds when all that is changed is where the cow spent the winter and calved.

I live probably another 250 miles further north than Jungels and I personally would have a hard time considering buying a bull with a birthweight much under 80 pounds and I never want to see a calf born less than 70 pounds.  Now when I say that I am referring to calves that are actually placed on a scale and weighed not just eyeballed.  It amuses me when people talk about a calf weighing between 80 and 85 pounds that just tells me they never actually weighed it and it could just as easily be 95 pounds.  The same thing goes for people saying a bulls calves average between this and that an average is a number not a range.  There are too many people that have no idea what their calves actually weigh and would be stunned to find out.

 

[kfacres]

Agree... I roll when I see "Bw in the 80s, born unassisted" for a promo bull...  We have bull calves every year that I think... That's not to bad.. about 85... put the scale to it, and he's pushing 100... and I consider myself a pretty good guesser on weights quite a lot of the time- and to be honest haven't weighed a lamb in 5 years- I can guess them within 1 lb; but these calves'll throw ya....  Then again, nobody cares what baby lambs weigh when they're born- it's going to be a range of 8 to 18; instead of 40 to 140

 

[aj]

The Shorthorn breed as a whole has a big BWT problem cause they are currently a show ring breed. So Doc let me get this right. You are blasting Jungels cause he didn't get BWTS down in one generation? Looks like to me they are trying to get bwts down.

 

[kfacres]

I wonder how many of the plus bulls- have mothers who were slated to be recips?  50 is my favorite there.

The PB bulls-- wonder why there isn't more JPJ sons, and more from JPJ daughters?  A few half brother/ sister matings- but not much JPJ on the 2nd generation (other than using a son)  18 & 19 are neat-- and I really like them more once I read the pedigree--- but 6 is my pick...

even though I doubt they're going to sell that way... and I've not seen them, nor will I be in Denver to check them out.  I always appreciate engaging in covo with Jungels--- 

 

[aj]

I know BS ......its just hard for me (with a straight face) to talk cattle production with someone from Tennessee.....I really try to keep an open mind.

 

[r.n.reed]

There is no doubt in my mind that Jazz is a calving ease sire but here is the problem as I see it.As an example a guy has a bunch of cows with genetics that are consistently producing monster birthweights,he wants to save his heifer calves lives so he breeds them to Jazz.Low and behold one has a 78lb bull calf with a phenotype close to his ideal.The calf develops well so he keeps him as a bull and winds up selling him to another guy with high birthweight cows who is looking for a bull to moderate birthweights but keep that magical phenotype.Well lets see 75% vs 25% plus a couple big boys back in the 25% who wins?

 

[knabe]

why not absolutely cull combo's and individuals that have problems.

elephant seals don't seem to have problems using this method.

 

[r.n.reed]

Knabe it depends on the length of your vision.

 

[KSUwildcat2009]

Thank you vcsf for your points! I agree with you!

 

[iowa]

I have approximately 25 shorthorn females and 2 bulls purchased directly from Jake Ohlde. These females and bulls are either daughters/grandaughters or grandsons of Jazz. All linebred in the Ohlde program.  I have not had one single defective animal in the 3 years I have owned these cattle.  I personally talked to Tim and Trudy regarding this rumor about Jazz.  I was told they have never had a single defective calf out of Jazz or any other animal blood related to him.  They have been breeding shorthorns since approximately 1992.  Curious that all of a sudden in 2011 there are defective calves sired by Jazz showing up. 

 

[cattlefarmer]

This sounds an awful lot like a rumor that was on here a couple years ago that jazz had died.  Sounds to me like a bunch of jealous people trying to bring down Derek's sale to me.