Shawn Varner

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aj

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I was told that there hasn't been a steer win a national show in 6 and one half years that was th free. I don't keep track. Champ steer a few years ago was clean by pedigree in Denver seems like a falsehood. I have been told if they are not th carriers they do not have the look to win......PERIOD.....no one that I know of disputes this fact. If they are not a th carrier the jocks don't want them. You can rationalize all you want. You can talk about sires that are clean and have potential but in 2 years they are gone. The genetic defect deal is a problem. jmo
 

aj

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Wow the story about the commercial guy judging a major show 8 years ago. How about a name and place and year. You can color me damn sceptical on that statement. They are not going to put a feedlot manager or owner in a major show and turn him loose. That is a bald face lie.
 

twistedhshowstock

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I never said it was a major show, it was a big jackpot.  The problem is you dont know the show cattle industry, yet you are judging it like you are an expert.  People speculate that there has not been a steer win a major show that is clean.  Truth is they dont test those steers so nobody has a clue one way or the other if they are clean or not.  We can say one is most likely a carrier, but without testing you dont know.  TRUTH in the matter is being a carrier in no way affects ones "look" the gene is recessive, so unless they are homozygous the gene has absolutely no affect.  If they are homozygous, they arent making it to the show ring.  The whole "clean bulls get hyped but in a couple years arent anywhere to be found" statement also proves your ignorance.  Tiger Woods is clean and has been around and siring succesful calves for more than a few years.
My point with the statement about the 2 judges, everyone wants to say the people in the 2 different segments of the industry view cattle so differently, truth is they dont.  Good cattle are good cattle, we are all taught the same fundamentals on evaluating them.  I am not saying that there are not issues within the club calf industry, there are.  There are a lot of problems and defects that we have to watch for, my point is that it is no different in the commercial industry.  There are plenty of genetic deffects, birthweight problems, etc in the commercial industry just like there are plenty of problems in the club calf industry.  And just like in the club calf industry all the commercial cattlemen arent saints, there are crooks there as well.  Commercial cattlemen arent all about getting rid of genetic deffects either.  As a matter of fact I know a lot of commercial cattlemen that could care less what deffects their cattle carry, plain and simple they breed the cattle that work for them in their situation, regardless of what others think.  How is that any different than club calf guys breeding carriers?  The club calf guy isnt out there saying "you know I really want a genetic defect in my herd" or "oh I really hope I have to cut this calf out of the cow."  Plain and simple they are willing to take the risk if the breeding is one that they think will work for them.
The only actual difference I see between the two segments is understanding.  Most people in the club calf industry understand why the cattle in the commercial industry are different than the ones in the show ring, because it takes different types of cattle to work in different situations.  If we were all simply taking cattle to the feedlot and wanting as low input as possible we would all be raising those commercial type cattle.  They may not be pretty, they may actually be ugly as sin, but they will produce and wean a calf without any help other than maybe a little hay in the winter.  Trust me we have a pasture full of those kind.  Club calf people understand that commercial cattlemen have a different end goal in mind and there is a type of cow that does it more efficiantly and economically than most of the cattle in the showring, thus the club calf guys dont go around bashing the commercial industry because they have a different set of standards or goals or type of cattle they use.  But simply because we have a different end point in mind in the show riring, because we have a different goal other than just weaning one and getting it to market. Because of our different  goal many of your "commercial" cattlemen bash everything we do.
Its really plain and simple.  You dont like the club calf industry, you dont like show cattle, then dont get in the club calf business, dont raise show cattle.  Same goes the other way, if you cant stand  commercial cattle, then dont become a commercial cattlemen.  Dont like dairy cattle, then dont get a herd of jerseys and start a dairy. I just think its kind of ridiculous to constantly bash an industry if you have no part in it and cant stand it.  If you want to go somewhere and see a bunch of cattle, but you only like commercial cattle and not show cattle, then go to the sale barn not to the stock show.
 

aj

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Not bashing anybody. The club calf steer deal is based around the th genetic defect. Because of this they are from a different world. They are not improving the beef industry. They are not ideal beef industry cattle. Fairly simple. Hell of a speech.....my compliments.
 

twistedhshowstock

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I am not arguing that a large majority of the clubby genetics are either TH or PHA carriers.  However  I think we send the wrong message when we tell people it is based around those defects.  Those bloodlines didnt start winning because they had the defect, at the time those bloodlines started getting promoted and started succeeding people were largely unaware of the defect.  Those cattle started winning because in the showring standards those cattle were superior.  I know I am kind of an odball in the club calf thing, but I think it is completely possible to have a calf with the "look" that is clean.  Like I said most of the steers that get shown never get tested to see if their carriers or not, so we really don know if they are or not.  We can speculate, but unless they start testing we wont know for sure. And people arent likely to start testing steers because we arent going to breed them so it really doesnt matter.  Like many others I hate hearing producers say you have to be breeding carriers to be competitive, because I simply dont believe its true.  I agree and can see that a lot of the cattle producing good ones year after year and that a lot of the top notch pedigrees are carriers, however from my understanding of genetics, and because of how recessive genes work, I cant make myself buy into this notion that their carrier status has any affect on the individuals quality.  I also think we are miseducating people buy continuing to pass that notion on.
 

aj

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The premise of my arguement is that calves have to be a th carrier in order to win a steer show. That is a fact. That is a truth. I have NEVER run across anyone but you that claims other wise. I wonder what the % of the winners of heatwave is? I was told that heatwave bull had a 160# bwt and was a c section. I am not blasting the club calf deal. I am just saying that these cattle ar NOT an improvement. They are not even usable. No emotion. Heck I don't care. The th dominate niche is worthless as germ plasma to the beef industry. A fact. Some of the breed shows have some good cattle that are say th free.
 
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