Shorthorn Discussion

[knabe]

Watch animals run that are square versus slightly cow hocked.

 

[cowboy_nyk]

That's pretty interesting nyk but I don't know that there is any truth to those claims.  A cow's hock is no different than your knee.  They are both hinge joints- they're not meant to allow side to side movement.  A cow that is bad sickle hocked knees will literally knock when they walk.  They'll toe out in the back and at this degree of severity, it will absolutely affect their mobility.    Of course, on a few hundred acre ranch, mobility in terms of traveling long distances isn't necessarily a high priority but you still have to try and maintain a reasonable level of structural correctness.  More times than not, cattle that are sickle hocked tend to me pretty narrow based too- and with that comes narrower pins ==> tall narrow pelvic ==> hard calving ==> so you have to select little fine made low bw bulls.  It's a long downward cycle of having to compensate because of lack of initially selecting for structural correctness.

I think we're mixing two points together.  Sickle hocked cattle have structural issues that may lead to poor feet, but that should not effect their pelvic area. 

Cow-hocked cattle absolutely present themselves as narrower in the pelvis.  The reason the bison need to be cow-hocked is so the bulls can wheel and fight.  You are right, the hock is like a knee and doesn't bend sideways.  That's why the animals whose feet point more outwards have an advantage in lateral agility.  As for narrowing of the pelvis, that would rarely be an issue with bison with the calves coming very small at birth anyways.  I'm not saying this is a desirable trait for beef cattle, merely an interesting trait selection in bison.  I'm sure there is a limit to this (they probably don't want their knees to touch).

 

[knabe]

hopefully they don't select for the most cow hocked bulls like has happened over and over with cattle selection for various traits including breeders in europe.


i can imagine a winner with their feet perpendicular, similar to frame 10 cattle in the 70's-80's based soley on height and double muscled cattle in europe.

 

[RyanChandler]

That's pretty interesting nyk but I don't know that there is any truth to those claims.  A cow's hock is no different than your knee.  They are both hinge joints- they're not meant to allow side to side movement.  A cow that is bad sickle cow hocked knees will literally knock when they walk.  They'll toe out in the back and at this degree of severity, it will absolutely affect their mobility.    Of course, on a few hundred acre ranch, mobility in terms of traveling long distances isn't necessarily a high priority but you still have to try and maintain a reasonable level of structural correctness.  More times than not, cattle that are sickle cow hocked tend to me pretty narrow based too- and with that comes narrower pins ==> tall narrow pelvic ==> hard calving ==> so you have to select little fine made low bw bulls.  It's a long downward cycle of having to compensate because of lack of initially selecting for structural correctness.

I think we're mixing two points together.  Sickle hocked cattle have structural issues that may lead to poor feet, but that should not effect their pelvic area. 

Cow-hocked cattle absolutely present themselves as narrower in the pelvis.  The reason the bison need to be cow-hocked is so the bulls can wheel and fight.  You are right, the hock is like a knee and doesn't bend sideways.  That's why the animals whose feet point more outwards have an advantage in lateral agility.  As for narrowing of the pelvis, that would rarely be an issue with bison with the calves coming very small at birth anyways.  I'm not saying this is a desirable trait for beef cattle, merely an interesting trait selection in bison.  I'm sure there is a limit to this (they probably don't want their knees to touch).

lol, here I am trying to explain it and I interchange the word!  We're on the same page.  I meant cow hocked both times I said sickle above.