Shorthorn EPD'S????

[Davis Shorthorns]

Has anyone looked at the shorthorn epd's lately?  I was just checking them today and it seems way off.  I was looking at a couple animals of mine and one of mine went from a 3.6 to a 1.2 bw?  I did some checking and alot of other bulls bw epd's went down.  Salute is down to a 6.6, solution is down, etc...  Just a question to see what happened.  It would be great if these were true and the breed is getting lower bw's, but I doubt it.

 

[justintime]

When the ASA changed to Colorado State doing their EPDs, something must have really went amuck. The ASA also does all Canadian Shorthorn EPDs and they went from being reasonable to totally unbelievable.I almost looks like some of the EPD files did not make the trip to Colorado State.  In several discussions with Greg Reuhle, before he left the ASA, he said that the American EPDs also needed to be revisited. I think the numbers you are now seeing are probably more accurate... and it was the ones we saw earlier this year, that were distorted.Hopefully they have got this straightened up. One cannot really blame the ASA as they only collect the data from breeders and then sent it on for the calculations to be done. I know they were spending many hours trying to figure out what had happened.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I hope that these EPD's are more accurate.  I am really liking my new numbers on my cattle.  (clapping)

 

[tucker]

i thought the same thing as just in time.  the last run of e.p.d s was way off  it seemed like every young bull went way up  even over the old bulls that was alot harder calving..giad  to c that this run looks  like it makes more sense.  my epd s  went some up and some down but the make alot more sense this time to what i actually seen in my herd,also the bulls i used seem more acurate and realistic to what  the b.w. in my herd was.

 

[oakbar]

I don't think you can really go by anything the Birth EPDs tell you right now.  I had one cow go from a -1.3 to a +1.9 and several other go up at least a full point.  Then I have one who is a grandaughter to Solution--she went down from 4.0 to 2.5 with an actual birth weight of 85, her sire went down from 4.3 to .8 and he had a birth weight of 107.  Meanwhile the dam went from 3.6 to 4.2 and had a birth wieght of 88.---Go figure!!! 

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

I dont know.  It just took me off guard last night.  I registered a calf that had a 120 lb bw, and it's sire went down from a 2.8 to a 1.0

 

[oakbar]

Yeah, me too!!  I can't imagine that 100 Solutions would go from 4.3 down to .8 while Studers Pretender(considered a calving ease bull) would go from 1.5 to 4.2!!

Pretty murky situation--I hope they can figure it out or the EPDs become worthless!!

 

[Show Heifer]

Davis Shorthorn typed:
I did some checking and alot of other bulls bw epd's went down.  Salute is down to a 6.6, solution is down, etc...  Just a question to see what happened.  It would be great if these were true and the breed is getting lower bw's, but I doubt it.
[/quote]

The most telling statement of all.....

 

[simtal]

why should any of the  breeders care, they don't use epds anyway.

EPDs change all the the time, the simmys just updated there epds.  There is a bull (KSU Venom), that went from around +17 on carcass weight, to -17 something!.  When you have few people reporting (and accurately) then slight changes in numbers become drastic overnight.

 

[tucker]

boy the studer pretender calves i have had was tuff calving, have u got along on hfrs. with him oakbar ? any one else?

 

[oakview]

The only Pretender calf (bull) I had was huge, over 125.  However, I have a Pretender daughter in production and all three of her calves have been in the 75 pound range.  Unfortunately, I don't have too much confidence in our BEPDs.  I bought a bull this spring with a negative BEPD and 3 or 4 generations of low birth weights and am hoping for the best.  There are just too many variables in calving ease to totally blame success or failure on the bull that sired the calves.

 

[jnm]

I used a Pretender son for two years. The first year was not too bad, the second year we were constantly pulling calves.

 

[oakbar]

Pretender aside---the EPDs are obviously not very trustworthy.    I hope the association can do something to alleviate this situation or why keep track of all the data.

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

why should any of the  breeders care, they don't use epds anyway.

EPDs change all the the time, the simmys just updated there epds.  There is a bull (KSU Venom), that went from around +17 on carcass weight, to -17 something!.  When you have few people reporting (and accurately) then slight changes in numbers become drastic overnight.

I use epd's, and I am a shorthorn producer that is working to lower the bw of my herd.  I think for the shorthorn breed to survive we need to get lower bw's so that the AVERAGE commercial cattleman who is looking for a new bull has something to measure them by.  I know that epd's are not perfict, but it is the best we have right now. 

 

[aj]

Congrats oakview and davis shorthorns for making a effort to trend towards lower bwt's. It is not a overnight process and it may take a couple generations of lower bwt bulls to make a impact. Those darn 120 calves look so good in the showring it is hard to convince people to try and moderate the birthweights. Once you have the big birth weight deal in your pedigree it can sneek up on you a couple generations down the line even. EPD's are a valuable tool but I don't think the Shorthorn breed epd's have enough data to make them real accurate yet. I think the Shorthorn breed is known to have cows that can lay down and have a 110# calf unnassisted but the bulls throw big calves.What to do?

 

[oakbar]

I agree--the breed needs to do something about the upward trend in birthweights.  I've been trying to do that overall in my small herd as well.  However, when certain crosses sell better than others I guess I'll try to please my customers, too!  Its a real catch 22 situation and if the EPDs are not accurate it just makes the process that much more difficult.  Don't worry, the EPD accuracy problem is not just a Shorthorn concern.  Every breed has changes in their EPDs as the animals mature.  My only point is that once they reach a .70 or .80 ACC they really should not change appreciably after that.

 

[Lucky7]

I have been told that the numbers got messed up and they are working on a new run.

 

[ELBEE]

I still maintain the best answer ever was from the old cowboy when asked. "What are your bull's EPD's?" His answer. "What do want them to be?"

                                                                                                                          (clapping)

 

[sjcattleco]

What good are EPD's when you use a breeding  program that incorporates linebreeding and the use of old proven, valuable genetics and your commercial goal is to  wean 50% of a cows body weight and you have negative EPD's across the board... Funny also EPD's are figured on cows that are frame 4 the same as they are on a frame 8.....does not make much sense.... Also how can weaning weight EPD's be accurate when only about 5 % of all producers have a set of scales and only a small number of them actually weigh each and every calf and report an accurate weight. Also on that mindset.... Cows that can produce a 700lb weaning weight in today's economy can probably do it and loose money....Cow calf producers either  pure bred or commercial need to worry about their costs of production and the end results of those costs and less about how much they are producing on a per head basis and think more on a per acre or per unit of input .... Feeders will feed what ever is available to feed..... So many folks have been told to worry about what your customer wants .... Now they need to tell the customers this is what I need and since you need me what I have is what you want!!!!

 

[aj]

epd's can be a valuable tool if a bull has 3000 progency. If a bull has 50 head of progency his epd's may or may not be accurate.I'm with sjc...a 40 yearling epd may not be better than a 20 epd if the cow can't hold up under a enviroment or she has other problems such as stayability issues or birth weight problems or whatever. It is about optimums not maximums most of the time.