Shorthorn question

[Jill]

Ok, here is my 2 cents take it or leave it.  I think the Durham Red program is a great deal, since they are starting the breed off from ground 0 I think they are very wise not to allow known genetic defects into the breed what I don't understand is PHA is just as prevelent from what I can see as TH, why would you take that stand against 1 and not the other.  Radio Active is a good example, I bred to him thinking he was free only to find out a year down the road he IS th free, but PHAC.  With so many known PHA shorthorn carriers, why not ban it also??

 

[OH Breeder]

Jill you are right, even when you look at semen catalogs and websights, they are quick to tell you TH FREE (clapping), BUT no word of PH with DB Stuff lineage.

 

[Cowfarmer65]

Sad to say stick that the Canadian Association is falling into the same trap you folks did and letting them cross over. Aj. I have no problem with the " Red Durham" or Shorthorn Plus. Just be honest to people and tell them the are F1 crossbreds. Hello people. Mark my words that this Black Simms, Limos, and other flat out trying to mislead Commercial Breeders will come back and kick you in the ass. As for Angus and Herefords staying pure....... )) )) )) ))Do you believe everything you read on paper. Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!! Goggle Eyed Hereforeds........... Please.. Should I go on.Why not........Angus with white underlines and Chi heads. Yes, I've been around the block. I'm not a rookie you can BS .  Show heifer you are right. Sadly peoples morals have diminished and they are not in it for the love of a breed.... They are here for a quick buck..... And before you jump on me about that. I'm 5th generation raising Shorthorns, dead set against bastardizing any breed. Couldn't care less if I went broke, which I won't, raising purebred, red, white and roan Shorthorns.Keeping appendixs seperate from my purebreds. And yes,I do have some appendix.

I did not say Red Angus was created from a Genetic Defect. Just a weak gene.  ;D

Have a great day folks.

 

[Show Dad]

I did not say Red Angus was created from a Genetic Defect. Just a weak gene.  ;D

OK CF65. I'm glad we're not defective just weak in the genes.   At least we know what color we are!

May the Karma Genie smile upon you.

 

[justintime]

I was going to stay out of this debate, however, after reading Cowfarmer's last comments, I felt I had to respond.  I am having a hard time understanding where this kind of logic is coming from.  There are so many things to respond from, I hardly know where to start.

First of all, I would agree with the statement that there probably is no such thing as a purebred breed. This is not just a recent developement, but the gene pools of all breeds has been changing for decades... and for centuries. I have been a student of pedigrees for most of my life. I doubt if you could show me a pedigree of a non asterisk Shorthorn today that I could not find blood from a source outside the breed. I am sure this is most likely the case in all breeds but I am more familiar with the Shorthorn breed.

Here are just a few examples. In Canada, the CSA has a program where unregistered cattle showing Shorthorn characteristics, can be recorded in our herdbooks at 3/4 level and they can be ungraded to purebred status from there.These cattle had to be inspected before they could enter this program. This program was instituted back in the late 60s and is still in effect today( few people even know it exists today). At the time it was  developed, there were a number of herds that had quit registering years before , and this was a program that was developed to bring some of these herds back into the breed and allow them to breed their herds back to purebred status. I was selected as one of the people who could inspect cattle and put them into the herdbook at 3/4 level. Many of todays most popular " non asterisk " bloodlines go back to some of the cattle I inspected years ago, and I know for a fact originated from grade cattle of unknown backgrounds.
Another example of this are the Irish Shorthorn bloodlines. I was one of the first importers of Irishg Shorthorns into North America. We imported our first cattle from Ireland shortly after Dick Judy at Beef Genetics Research, Inc, in Kansas brought in the first cattle. These cattle had NO PEDIGREES.... none... zip... zero. Oftentimes, the little pedigrees an animal had changed depending which Irish breeder you talked with. Again, many of these " Irish Shorthorns" were cattle that had no registered ansectors for many generations. There probably would not be TH in Shorthorns today if these Irish lines were made up of only Shorthorn blood. Deerpark Improver's sire, Clare Man, was a red bull that the Quane Bros. purchased at a local auction market. I would bet my farm that Clare Man had Galloway blood flowing through his veins as the Galloway breed had TH long before it appeared in Shorthorns. It seems quite remarkable that the exact same genetic defect would happen in two seperate breeds. I truly believe that TH in Shorthorns came from an outside source, and my guess is it came from Galloway blood.
When it came time to register the Irish cattle in the Canadian herdbook, I lobbied hard to have them put into the appendix herdbook, and I was not even sure that they should go into this herdbook at purebred levels( simply because of their unknown backgounds and blood). This was passed and the Irish Shorthorns were put into the Appendix herdbook as purebreds. One year later, a motion was brought forward to move the Irish cattle directly into the Closed herdbook. I travelled to Vancouver to oppose this motion, however, it was passed with my vote being the only one opposed to it. After this happened, I realized that the Appendix herdbook was probably purer that the Closed herdbook... and from that point onwards, I have selected cattle simply on basis of their quality... not whether they have an * on their registration papers. I still truly believe this today. At least with an appendix animal, I can trace back and document where the non Shorthorn blood originated from.

I could go on and on. Here in Canada, Ayatollah and numerous other animals containing Illarawa blood were allowed directly into the Canadian Shorthorn Closed herdbook. At least the American Shorthorn Association never allowed this to happen. Not only are the Illawara only 5/8 Shorthorn blood but many of the newer Illawara bloodlines ( from the 70s and 80s) are up to 50% red and white Holsteins.  These bloodlines appear quite regularly in the background of many pedigrees.

So, if you are totally opposed to " Bastardizing any breed" , I think you are a little late. I would be interested in seeing the pedigrees of the sires you are using. I am almost positive, I could find some bloodlines that have no relationship to original Shorthorn bloodlines. By the way, these original Shorthorn bloodlines all originated in Scotland and England, and they are non extistent in those countries today. Bristish breeders have told me that there is no animals in Britain today, that go back to the old " Scottish" bloodlines 100%.

I could give you countless other examples, but you should get my point( I hope).  One thing I want to make clear, is that this has not happened only in the Shorthorn breed. It has taken place in all breeds. I have been involved in many breeds over the years and I know of many examples.

The cattle industry is changing ... and changing fast. I for one, think the Durham Red program is an excellent program. I am sure it is going to develop a niche market for Shorthorn and Red Angus genetics. I also wonder why no mention of PHA is in their requirements. I think it would be a very credible move if they did this. I am very confident that the Durham Red program has the potential to develop into a distinct breed in the future.

One more thing and then I will shut up. I see no evidence of other breeds trying to mislead commercial producers with their red and black cattle. They have well documented pedigrees, and they are probably some of the most well documented cattle offered today. I would like you to tell my neighbour who raises only red and black Simmentals, that he is being dishonest to his commercial clientele. Last year his bull sale averaged over $11,000 with over 1/2 of his bulls selling to commercial producers. Show me anyone in any breed who is doing this with only traditional non bastardized cattle( as you call them). His bulls are popular and they work for their owners. Most of his bull buyers are repeat buyers, so they are either really dumb... or really happy with the product he is producing.

 

[aj]

We mshould realize that there are honest mistakes in pedigrees also. For example a.i. and natural service overlaps. Bulls jumping over the fence and then gotten out before anyone knows. Hunters leaving gates open and ect. One thing coming along is the dna testing and etc. that a lot of things can be figured out in a blood sample. A perfect star tenderness bull is just that period. Wasn't there a herford bull that brought zillions of dollars a couple of years ago but failed the blood type test when semen was drawn. I was told that back in the 70's in one national show that the grand champion steer for the shorthorn, herford, and angus divisions... were all sired by cunia. His calves tended to take on the look of the breed of cow he was mated to. There is no doubt in my mind the angus and herford breed has the monkey mouth deal floating around out there. The good news is that alot of commercial cattle-people don't use showring genetics. I think it goes back to the integrity of a breeder and his the selection pressure he use. You can take a purebred bull(frame 8 and breed him to a cow of the same breed(frame 4) and the resulting 10 offspring will be all over the board as far as the resulting offsring goes and their frame scores. They will vary from 4 to 8 frame score. If you breed a frame 5 limi-flex to a frame 5 red durham your frame scores of the offspring will be more consistently frame 5. So here a crossbred times a crossbred mating is more consistent then the purebred mating. Alot of times there is more gvariation in some breeds then there is between breeds. The thing for commercial people is that THE ONLY FREE DEAL IN CATTLE PRODUCTION IS HETEROSIS. You can improve things by 15-20 % simply by using a well managed crossbreeding system. This usually means using PUREBRED SEEDSTOCK to obtain this. You hypothetically could use 2 breeds that were terible in required traits for the the commerial industry and get horrible results. You could use 2 hybrid breeds on each other that have been selected for economically important traits and get along o.k.. So it is a very interesting topic. ;D

 

[garybob]

Wow! CF65 can start more arguments than me!

I am a Shorthorn Breeder. Like many, I didn't come from a multigeneration operation breeding Shorthorns. My Grandfather,Nathan "NG"Gibbs had a few Roan cows in his commercial herd in the '70's. They always outperformed the Herefords and Black-baldy cows in the herd. This was, of course, before the "Performance Revolution" came to the Ozarks ( "a backward and uneducated part of the world" to quote Nick Hammet). When the Charolais and Simmentals came, NO BREED could match them for neither MAXIMUM weaning performance , nor hip height at a year of age( optimum was not a concept used during this time, as many of you well-know).
It is from this memory of good, real, Shorthorn Brood-cows, that were easy-keeping, fertile,SOGGY, tough biddies that could hustle and raise a HEAVY (not tall) calf, breed back every year, that I chose Shorthorns for my show projects in FFA .Back to the cattle. Guys, in fact, they gained at least 2 heat-cycles each year, and moved up in the calving months not slip and roll over to the next calving season. They did this eating Fungus-infected KY31 Fescue and Broom Sedge, ("sage grass" to those of us from the Southeast and Lower Midwest) ,the poorest forage species of all time. Those cows recieved only salt and a cheap, Basic-8 mineral( FORGET Magnesium), and 2 pounds of "Cubes" per day during the winter. They never prolapsed, had bad eyes, feet, or udders, and never recieved a Lepto Shot ( Paw-paw was a notorious tight-wad). They NEVER suffered from "Grass Tetany", either.
Boy, was I in for a surprise! Long- story shortened, after college, I resumed my breeding enterprise. The super-duper "Shorthorns" Blood lines and Popular Pedigrees didn't perform like the ones I had in HighSchool, and CERTAINLY not HALF as good as the ones "Pa-Paw" Gibbs ranched with in the '70's. Why? What happened? Thus, I began my quest to, at least in my Herd, bring back the TRUE Shorthorn to the "Shorthorn" Breed.
If I offend anyone,when I post on here, I'm sorry . I just don't think it should be  ''Performance VS. Show Ring''. I, like many of you, really enjoyed showing cattle as a youngster. I still, to this day, get excited at Fair Time.

And, by the way, Herfords were ALL"goggle-eyed" and pigmented, and didn't have bad udders, poor feet, or prolapse, until the show ring trends of the early 1900's ( and one particular, popular Bull, Who had a pretty, white, non-pigmented face that distinguised his calves from crossbreds) introduced these traits (along with the famous "feather" on the neck) to the Hereford Breed.

just another "cow nerd",

Gary Bob

 

[Show Dad]

Hurry, quick somebody and pour some water on JIT before she boils over!  

Girl you are smoke'n!

BTW, don't shut up. Your posts add to the debate (in a good way).

Thanks. ;D

 

[Cowfarmer65]

(clapping)
See all it takes is someone like me that is willing to stick their neck out and look like the bad guy and everybody will pipe up.
I enjoyed your comments Justintime. Glad I got you riled up enough ;D. Believe me I know the history of Shorthorns all to well. I just couldn't resist the opportunity to get a good discussion going. Hope to see you next weekend Justintime.

 

[shortyjock89]

Justintime...he's a dude...lol..

GB...that might be one of your best posts of all time..I really liked it.

 

[garybob]

Justintime...he's a dude...lol..

GB...that might be one of your best posts of all time..I really liked it.

No, ShortyJock! He's THE MAN. If Knabe is President, then, we need JIT for Secretary of State, simply for his Diplomacy during difficult times.

Me? I'm just a RedNeck from the hills south of Branson. My apologies to Red. She's the one who invited me here. I just never thought that I'd rile anyone's negative emotions by promoting my ideas and beliefs on the topic of cattle breeding. I thought that's Why we're Here.

Ya'll tell DL I said "hello".

GB

 

[Show Dad]

Oops! My bad! Sorry about that JIT.

 

[aj]

Gary bob....I was curious on the herford bull that was popular and non-pigmented and feather necked. Was he a abs bull. I assume he was a horned herford..just curious I guess.

 

[garybob]

Gary bob....I was curious on the herford bull that was popular and non-pigmented and feather necked. Was he a abs bull. I assume he was a horned herford..just curious I guess.

AJ,

I was referring to a Bull that definitely pre-dates American Breeders' Service. He was popular in the era of around World War One, 1915, I think his name was Siilver Domino. Don't confuse him with the Line 1 Domino bloodlines developed by the USDA at Miles City, MT. This Bull I'm talking about is responsible for taking away, in one generation,the pigmentation, sound feet, good udders, (the traits that made Herefords popular on the Western Ranges). AND, what's worse, Uterine Prolapse became a more frequent problem about this time, all because of show ring "standards", set in place by "gentlemen farmers" in New England. They were looking for a pretty, white, non-pigmented face, that was pretty when it was washed.

Basically, when the uppity-uppity crowd invades a breed, they leave a mess in their wake.This is currently happennning in Shorthorns here in the USA.

Wake UP!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sue]

Why in the world isn't pha include in requirements. Is it because it isn't licensed or something. The durham red deal in a lot of ways is the only program in which the shorthorn breed will be taken seriously. You know that someone will take advantage of this deal. If you are a serious breeder you will demand a pha test also. The shorthorn board should stop this potential nightmare senario right by god now or they will have a huge wreck on there hands to dump on someone like bolze 10 years from now. I tested 5 durham red bull calves for th and pha also. All were clean except for 1 th positive. We must start this durham red deal off right as foundation herds are being started. I tested for pha because it is to simple not to. I have begged and begged  and begged to find out if nobodies fool is a pha carrier for 2 years and and no one speaks up. I don't like or use that line but it needs to be known. If you want to use pha positive cattle in the showring deal I really don't care but please lets not screw up the durham red deal for 5 years of profit when this could become a great line of cattle for a 100 years. It is to darn easy to test durham red cattle for pha right now instead of fighting another nightmare 10 years from now. ???

The PHA could still be included in the requirements and if I am not mistaken- PHA Marker is not officiall ?? So I think we are still in the same boat as we were when TH was pending ??? So nothing can be in writing at this point. We have tested two animals that go back to Fool and both are pHa free?? Not sure this helps you. I agree Durham Red is a great program and let's not screw it up. I have to comment about F1 and commerical breeders doing it for years. Durham Red, Balancer and other composite programs make it one stop shopping for commerical herds that have a strong Black Angus influence. Composite is the wave of the future and it is up to each Purebred breeder to continue to breed the best or purest or how ever you want to look at it. Hey just another plug about Durham Red Cattle- simply assume. I love my appendix free SH- but we have enjoyed our first group of DR. Please if you have not taken time to see a group of DR - please do.

 

[DL]

Hey Sue - although the PHA test is not yet officially licenced results are available with lab numbers - so that the status can be recorded on the Maine papers. I think the ASA could have been more active re their take on the PHA status of DR cattle - the test is available and they could have required it - it seems (ie ASA and some Shorthorn breeders ignoring PHA) to be a trend - but then I am a zealot! Have some DR comin late spring - kinda excited...

 

[knabe]

you can now get on your registration papers PHA and TH status.  one is P for obtained by parentage or T for test.  ie, if you had your cow tested and bred her to a bull that has a test, the offspring are clean by parentage (P).  this is to insure mixups that may have happened for whatever reason, and is not as conclusive as an actual test with a test number.  the voice should have an article about that.

attached pic is two different animals, one by test, the other by parentage.  the test one was out of a bull that i think joeboy had a positive out of, and he isn't tested, so i tested the heifer.  the other i didn't test as she's out of legacy plus and my midas cow who i had tested.

 

[Jill]

In the thread earlier on that nobody really liked the parentage free thing because you didn't really verify that those were the actual parents.  Anyway from the response the verdict is still out (on this board anyway) on putting that there with no test, I guess I can see pros and cons both ways.  I guess to me your liability would greatly increase if I have a calf that wasn't really out of that bull and I now have a PHA calf when my paper says she was free, I guess I would feel more comfortable having nothing there as opposed to the possibility of being wrong.

 

[knabe]

i agree jill.  it's an intermediate step.  obviously one can blood type to get the parentage as well, and the association rightly requires this to be an ai sire or to register any calves from a cow from a flush.  for me, i am always leery about the parents of any animal, regardless of PHA/TH status.  too many on purpose "mistakes" in just about every breed to put head in sand.