Shorthorn % question

[red]

I just got my SEK catalog (getting excited for breeding season already!). I noticed in the Shorthorns many of the bulls were listed as purebreds. One was out of Warhorse so I know he can't be a full Shorthorn. What is the difference between a full & a purebred?
Also, don't want to start any battle here, but noticed almost all the bulls had -BW's. Are they really that much of calving ease bulls or is it playing w/ numbers?

Red

 

[shortyjock89]

Warhorse is registered as 7/8 Shorthorn.  His calves can be registered as purebred if out of a purebred cow.  Purebred is known as 15/16, and fullblood would be an animal without an asterisk in it's registration number.  There aren't many fullblood Shorthorns left. 

The numbers are looking weird because they re-figured EPD's for Shorthorns, and we lost part of our records (allegedly) when they were moved.  I wouldn't trust Shorthorn EPD's as far as I could throw the cattle they belong to. 

 

[red]

I wondered because Warhorse is registered for the Maines as 50%.
Convenient losing records. 

 

[shortyjock89]

I wondered because Warhorse is registered for the Maines as 50%.
Convenient losing records. 

Double Vision is also one of those Double Registered bulls I think, although it's a little lesser known.  Warhornse and DV's mommas are both Purebred(Or is it Fullblood?) Maines, and red ones.  That means they are also eligible to be registered 3/4 Shorthorn. 

 

[Davis Shorthorns]

Warhorse is registered as 7/8 Shorthorn.  His calves can be registered as purebred if out of a purebred cow.  Purebred is known as 15/16, and fullblood would be an animal without an asterisk in it's registration number.  There aren't many fullblood Shorthorns left. 

The numbers are looking weird because they re-figured EPD's for Shorthorns, and we lost part of our records (allegedly) when they were moved.  I wouldn't trust Shorthorn EPD's as far as I could throw the cattle they belong to. 

Yea, I wouldn't believe any of the no's in the shorthorn breed right now.  The only way to figure out what a bull will do is to go and talk to people that have calves on the ground and pray that they tell you the truth.  All the bulls that I am thinking about using this year either I have talked to people that have had calves out of them or have gone into the data base and looked at all the actual no's and the dams no's and so on and so on.  I think that the majority of people are going to be telling the truth about the no's so look at that to get a average.  I just wish they could get this taken care of.  I'm sorry but there is no way that solution is a -BW bull.  They also need to publish that the no's are wrong and try to get something worked out.  If someone does use a shorthorn bull thinking that they are getting a calving ease bull and all they throw is 90+ lb calves they wont use a shorthorn bull again.  OK off my soap box. 

 

[ELBEE]

- calving ease = + birth weight EPD. Calving ease is relevant to assistance, and birth weight is just that, birth weight.

The only way you'll be able to determine how much Maine is in these bulls, is to pull up their papers on the web site and go back till you recognize the ancestry.

 

[knabe]

I just got my SEK catalog (getting excited for breeding season already!). I noticed in the Shorthorns many of the bulls were listed as purebreds. One was out of Warhorse so I know he can't be a full Shorthorn. What is the difference between a full & a purebred?
Red

why is this a problem?  many breeds have infused blood from different places to improve their breed.  international associations allow a number of generations to pass before they can become fullbloods.  seems like a reasonable policy.

i was more concerned about the lack of choices compared to in the past.  seems like an opportunity to me.

 

[red]

I just got my SEK catalog (getting excited for breeding season already!). I noticed in the Shorthorns many of the bulls were listed as purebreds. One was out of Warhorse so I know he can't be a full Shorthorn. What is the difference between a full & a purebred?
Red

why is this a problem?  many breeds have infused blood from different places to improve their breed.  international associations allow a number of generations to pass before they can become fullbloods.  seems like a reasonable policy.

i was more concerned about the lack of choices compared to in the past.  seems like an opportunity to me.

not a problem, just was curious. I guess I was confused that Warhorse could be both a 50% Maine &  sire a purebred bull. The BW EPD's cufused me more than anything.

Red

 

[aj]

How does the maintainer deal work? Could you have a 7-8ths angus and a 1-8th maine to be a maintainer? Or what is the required %'s. Seems like the maines went from being big ole red plow pulling beast's to becoming black angus look alikes. What is the high end of %'s called a maintainer?

 

[knabe]

How does the maintainer deal work? Could you have a 7-8ths angus and a 1-8th maine to be a maintainer? Or what is the required %'s. Seems like the maines went from being big ole red plow pulling beast's to becoming black angus look alikes. What is the high end of %'s called a maintainer?

purebreds are maintainers no matter what.  it's just a percentage chosen to demarcate where the cutoff of using a different word, in this case purebred, to blur original phenotypes with a black hide from fullbloods, which, were not all plow pulling beasts which for some reason, were over emphasized during a brief period after import in some shows as a couple of influential people overemphasized single trait selection, and the bias, and for some the single trait selection stuck.  that said, i'm not under the impression they are smaller than lowlines either.

since there are lots of shenanigans regarding "fullbloods" of any breed, there is a natural reluctance to even accept case by case animals to fullblood status, even if they've been bred for x numbers of generations with verified parentage.

 

[simtal]

can't a red fullblood maine be a 3/4 shorthorn?

 

[knabe]

can't a red fullblood maine be a 3/4 shorthorn?

yes, and if you have enough time on your hands, you will notice some black simmental's with fullblood maine's in their pedigree.

who knew.  now you know.  i just found that out the other day.

 

[linnettejane]

can't a red fullblood maine be a 3/4 shorthorn?

yes, we had a purebred red maine bull 2 years ago that the asa let us registered as 3/4 shorthorn...i did this because i was using him on my purebred shorties and it would make my calves 7/8...they are double reg. short plus and maintainer....i can now breed those 7/8 heifers to purebred shorts and their calves will be registered purebreds..

 

[red]

How does the maintainer deal work? Could you have a 7-8ths angus and a 1-8th maine to be a maintainer? Or what is the required %'s. Seems like the maines went from being big ole red plow pulling beast's to becoming black angus look alikes. What is the high end of %'s called a maintainer?

they have to be 1/4 Maine. Also only heifers can be registered as a Maintainer if the come from a bull that is commercial.

 

[DLD]

Okay, I'm gonna throw in my percentage Shorthorn question, too.  Am I correct in assuming that a heifer by Johnny Walker Red out of a 15/16 Shorthorn female would be eligible to paper and show as a Shorthorn Plus?

 

[jnm]

The %'s listed on the shorthorn website pedigrees changed drastically when they changed systems a year ago. Nearly all the bulls now state they are 100% shorthorn (just changed again to say 16/16). There are many animals that used to be listed as .875 or less that are now listed as 100%. I can show you animals that have an AR registered dam or sire and they are now  listed as 16/16. This is impossible!. I have tried for a year to get an explanation but nobody in the office or on the board seems to care.

 

[kfacres]

I tend to agree with you...  Anything that is made through a genetic expansion program, or anything of the such, will never be purebred, yet they get listed as so... Some call them full-bloods, or whatever.. but the shorthorn percentage thing really throws me for a loop, and that's what i have....  I do know for sure anything with black on it has to be registered as a half blood, regardless of parentage, or percentage...  I guess if you t hink about it, nothing anymore is purebred, so many people are trying to "improve" the breed, every breed included... I don't care who you are, or what your breed is!!

 

[aj]

The Maine Anjou was developed in France from combining two breeds. The Durhams and the Mancelle. The thought was that Maine Anjou ended up being around 3-4 ths Shorthorn in their makeup. That is why the fullblood Maine can be registered as a 3-4 quarter blood. The Shorthorn assc does have a wide open appendix program. Just about all breeds do now except ..Angus and Herfords? When the breed was wanting to increase frame size they used Milking Shorthorns to do that. The breed incorporated the red Maine Anjou to stouten up the cattle around the early 80's. For better or worse that is the story. The angus can't legally use maines because they are not related. I don't think chi's or holsteins are related to Angus either. Geez how many people on this board have ever seen a red Maine or a red Simmental or a white chi or a red Limi. Those were the old days I guess. ;D

 

[red]

AJ- I have quite a few but they aren't fullbloods! Love my red Maines!!!!

Red 

 

[shortdawg]

We bought a small herd last fall that is mostly the old red/white Simmys - nice old line cattle.