Shorthorn Sires
- Thread starter Dbirdsong
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knabe
Well-known member
Red alert had no milk as do a lot of his progeny (which unfortunately include some of the most popular pb maine anjou sires) so much so that people joked his cows could t fill a thimble which is used as a milk pail in wild cow milking contests.
Inox threw terrible udders.
Inox threw terrible udders.
jaimiediamond
Well-known member
-XBAR- said:
I thought I would do a comparison of females in our program and their sires. I find that your scrotal neck theory made some sense. So I thought I would do a comparison of females in our program and their sires. When looking at the daughters of herd sires we have used I have found scrotal neck made no difference, although a bull’s dam’s udder has a large influence in what his daughters’ udders and attachments look like.
We have been selecting (and eliminating) potential herd sires by their dams’ udder and that has been very effective for a number of years. I’ve attached a selection of three sires and two daughters or each which are in production so you can compare udders (x chromosome related) to scrotal neck length (y chromosome). I could have kept going on sires but I felt that was carried away even for me
Eionmor Chief 16H
Circle M Ghost Rider 10G
Diamond Prophecy 21P
RyanChandler
Well-known member
Eionmor chief looks like a really good bull.
Davis Shorthorns
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Davis Shorthorns
Well-known member
Davis Shorthorns
Well-known member
Luke Bowman
Member
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- Dec 23, 2011
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Food for thought on MILK....
Got Milk? Not the White Stuff… November 2009
It’s a point of confusion for many breeders across the country, yet an important aspect of raising Shorthorns: Milk Expected Progeny Difference (EPD). Listening to young people give oral reasons in judging contests certainly proves the point. One hears more ‘half-truths’ about the meaning of Milk EPD than any other column on the paper. In the simplest of definitions, Milk EPD is really nothing more than the genetically unexplainable portion of weaning weight. After all, the trait is measured in pounds of live calf ‘due to milk.’ A portion of the weaning weight is attributed to the bull’s performance, and a portion to the cow’s performance. What’s left over is lumped into Milk EPD, giving the cow credit, or blame, for raising her calf. For this reason alone, embryo transfer progeny cannot have Weaning Weight or Milk EPDs calculated since the recipient cow did all the work.
There are a number of things that influence Milk EPD, some more obvious than others. It sounds absurd, but Milk EPD really has very little to do with the white stuff that comes out of the udder. We simply do not measure milk the way dairy farmers do. Along these lines, the size of a cow’s udder is a common misconception of Milk EPD. Numerous breeders have shown me Shorthorn cows with large udders, but low Milk EPDs. We can blame this on our first trip down the dairy aisle at the county fair. We logically think, big udder, big milk. Research tells us that the nutritional value of the milk is just as important as the amount consumed. In cowboy logic, you may be looking at a big udder full of “skim” milk. In other cases, the large udder may have a mammary system that’s partially inactive due to a number of environmental factors.
One environmental factor that can cause havoc on Milk EPD is creep feed. It’s not that creep feed is bad or good, but rather hard to figure into the complex math problem that generates Milk EPD. We all know that some calves don’t really like creep feed right away, yet others seem to “camp out” at the feeder until weaning day. When those two calf types are in the same contemporary group, it gets extremely hard to separate genetics from environment. Creep feed can have some biological impact on heifers that may be detrimental to their value as a mature cow. If creep feed is introduced early to heifers, research suggests that fat cells may form in the mammary system, essentially blocking the ability for milk production.
Before you yank the creep feeder or cull the big bag cow, the true value of Milk EPD needs attention. In general terms, cows that put more grow in their calves due to milk need more feed per pound of bodyweight to do it every year. Where feed resources are scarce, breeders prefer moderate milk to ensure cows rebreed on time. Put that same cow in the Corn Belt, and you may have a disappointed breeder come weaning time. We’ve all seen the two-year-old that milks her heart out, but comes up open in the fall. Likewise, we may remember the cow that stayed fat all summer, yet her calf looked like walking death. These are the genetic “pictures” of high and low Milk EPD, respectively. Reproductive organs will not function properly if a cow is in poor body condition, hence the open three-year-old. Management can mask the genetic story of both cows, and the Milk EPD calculation can struggle telling the difference. Patience, proper contemporary grouping, and Whole Herd Reporting (WHR) are the best methods to assess whether you’ve ‘Got Milk.’
Patrick Wall
Got Milk? Not the White Stuff… November 2009
It’s a point of confusion for many breeders across the country, yet an important aspect of raising Shorthorns: Milk Expected Progeny Difference (EPD). Listening to young people give oral reasons in judging contests certainly proves the point. One hears more ‘half-truths’ about the meaning of Milk EPD than any other column on the paper. In the simplest of definitions, Milk EPD is really nothing more than the genetically unexplainable portion of weaning weight. After all, the trait is measured in pounds of live calf ‘due to milk.’ A portion of the weaning weight is attributed to the bull’s performance, and a portion to the cow’s performance. What’s left over is lumped into Milk EPD, giving the cow credit, or blame, for raising her calf. For this reason alone, embryo transfer progeny cannot have Weaning Weight or Milk EPDs calculated since the recipient cow did all the work.
There are a number of things that influence Milk EPD, some more obvious than others. It sounds absurd, but Milk EPD really has very little to do with the white stuff that comes out of the udder. We simply do not measure milk the way dairy farmers do. Along these lines, the size of a cow’s udder is a common misconception of Milk EPD. Numerous breeders have shown me Shorthorn cows with large udders, but low Milk EPDs. We can blame this on our first trip down the dairy aisle at the county fair. We logically think, big udder, big milk. Research tells us that the nutritional value of the milk is just as important as the amount consumed. In cowboy logic, you may be looking at a big udder full of “skim” milk. In other cases, the large udder may have a mammary system that’s partially inactive due to a number of environmental factors.
One environmental factor that can cause havoc on Milk EPD is creep feed. It’s not that creep feed is bad or good, but rather hard to figure into the complex math problem that generates Milk EPD. We all know that some calves don’t really like creep feed right away, yet others seem to “camp out” at the feeder until weaning day. When those two calf types are in the same contemporary group, it gets extremely hard to separate genetics from environment. Creep feed can have some biological impact on heifers that may be detrimental to their value as a mature cow. If creep feed is introduced early to heifers, research suggests that fat cells may form in the mammary system, essentially blocking the ability for milk production.
Before you yank the creep feeder or cull the big bag cow, the true value of Milk EPD needs attention. In general terms, cows that put more grow in their calves due to milk need more feed per pound of bodyweight to do it every year. Where feed resources are scarce, breeders prefer moderate milk to ensure cows rebreed on time. Put that same cow in the Corn Belt, and you may have a disappointed breeder come weaning time. We’ve all seen the two-year-old that milks her heart out, but comes up open in the fall. Likewise, we may remember the cow that stayed fat all summer, yet her calf looked like walking death. These are the genetic “pictures” of high and low Milk EPD, respectively. Reproductive organs will not function properly if a cow is in poor body condition, hence the open three-year-old. Management can mask the genetic story of both cows, and the Milk EPD calculation can struggle telling the difference. Patience, proper contemporary grouping, and Whole Herd Reporting (WHR) are the best methods to assess whether you’ve ‘Got Milk.’
Patrick Wall
J
JTM
Guest
CF Star Bucks would give power and should improve udders and keep show ring appeal. A&T Renegade will definitely improve udders and will keep them attractive looking. That's all I can speak to because that's all I've been using.
Doc
Well-known member
JTM said:
Josh , I bought some Renegade semen to try on some heifers. Waiting on it to show up, Cattle Visions didn't have any when I ordered it. Pulling cidrs on Wednesday , hope it shows up in time.
J
JTM
Guest
Thanks Mike, I sure hope it does too! I released more to them last week and they should have it by now and be able to get it to you... I believe he is the answer on heifers of any kind for live unassisted vigorous calves. The other bull I have used that I think could compare is the RS 329 bull. They will grow like weeds bred to your cows. Good luck!Doc said:
sue
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- Joined
- May 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,906
Is this the typical Ace of diamonds udder?Dbirdsong said:
I have two Ace of Diamond cows. They both are 3 year olds. This one has more milk than it looks like in the picture. She lets her calf and anything else that wants to nurse her. Her front teets are a little long and a bit big when her bag is full. Her dam had very large teets. Ace of diamonds actually improved that some. The other cow has a similar utter but her dams utter was terrible in every way so I would say he improved them both. The capiche calf on the pictured calf is growing pretty well despite the cow letting others nurse her.
knabe
Well-known member
what was so terrible they uttered?
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