Thanks for doing the conversions Okotoks! I knew it was 2.2 something, but you doing that saved me some time.
Aussie...
1st, I want to be totally clear that I am not promoting fullblood Lowlines in this post. I am promoting frame 4 cattle. I've never seen a frame 4 fullblood Lowline. However, I have seen plenty of frame 4 percentage or crossbred (same thing, just depends upon which term you would rather use) Lowlines. With that said, not all of my frame 4 cattle are Lowline crosses.
2nd, the frame 4.5 Energizer bull that I referred to is a purebred Tarentaise. He has no Lowline blood at all. But, his offspring at Kit Pharo's shows what a frame 4 animal is capable of on a forage test.
3rd, a frame 4 is only 2 inches shorter than a frame 5. However, with the correct build, many of them will weigh everybit as much or more than many "modern" frame 5's.
4th, yes, this thread is about extremes & I assume that you would call a fullblood Lowline an extreme, just like you are calling those old school Shorthorns. All I did was attempt to show you that the offspring of either of those extremes can "fix" a bunch of problems (traits) in animals that have gone to the other extreme.
5th, sounds like they are weaning 660 lb. calves on the average. They are using frame 5 cows, but I can do that all day long with an even smaller cow... a frame 4. Check out Kit Pharo's catalogues... he has weaned off plenty of 600 lbers out of even smaller 900-1000 lb. cows & so have I. If they instead ran frame 4's, depending upon their weight, they might be able to stock a few more head & maybe get a few more 660 lb. calves to add to the load. ;-)
6th, a 1,200-1,250 lb. frame 4 cow will typically produce a calf that finishes around 1,200-1,250 lbs. 520 kg is 1,140. Cindy's half Lowline's were consitantly finishing out at over 1,100. That 1,140 lb. target is pretty doable with the right kind of frame 4 cows. No need for a frame 5 or bigger to accomplish that.
7th, without silage supplement, just good summer pasture, I've seen plenty of frame 4's gain 2.64 lbs. (1.2 kg's) or better on summer grass & I have sited 2 people who have documented this. Actually, Cindy had a half Lowline steer that gained slightly better than 6 lbs. per day on gamma grass during the 1st few weeks after turn out! And getting a frame 4 to gain 1.32 lbs. (.6) during the winter isn't an overly big deal, especially if you have pretty decent hay or stockpiled grass. If you had baleage/silage, you could do even better than that, but the summer gains might not be as impressive.
8th, similar to your genetics being frame 5's in dry country, but a 6.5 at your place... A frame 4 here in KY, is probably a frame 5 in central Michigan & probably a frame 3, in central Florida. So keep that in mind.
9th, we do have USDA quality grades & we want our cattle to grade at least choice. Smaller cattle will do that pretty easily on grass alone, if you have the right genetics. You could porobably hit prime the majority of the time with frame 4 with grainfed's. In Australia, if you don't care about marbling, I can see why frame size may not matter as much. Now somebody will argue that the masses don't want marbling & they are correct. However, a premium is paid for higher quality grades, so why not retain ownership, produce something smaller, that costs you less to raise, but will potentially result in more $$ on the rail? Show animals? They Show the small ones too, just like the big ones & they cost less to feed, take up less space, are typically easier to break, etc., etc., etc. And I've seen plenty of small ones bring over 3K & some as much as 26K. Anyway, you want to slice it, smaller is typically more profitable.
With all that said, those calves that you mentioned do sound like a dream for the person who is stocking/growing/finishing them! I'm just not sure that it is the best opportunity for the cow/calf guy, unless they retain ownership. But, we are only talking about 2 inches in height & that's not enough of a difference to really argue about, IMHO. But, a 6.5 or bigger frame is! Also, let's just admit that things are different in Australia & the USA. The grassfed beef market sounds totally different. Maybe you guys haven't fed enough grain to goof up up your herds enough to need a old school bull to be able to produce cattle that will work on ONLY grass. IDK. I just know that if you tried to turn the average Shorthorn into grass fed/grass finished beef here in the USA, you'd probably be out of business before you even got started good, based on my experience with them! Most of them (not all) need at least some GRAIN, but they do taste mighty good when grain fiinshed. I'll gladly admit that!!! They just haven't been bred for grass finishing, they have been bred for the showring (which means grainfed) and/or the feedlot (which also means grainfed).
Anyway, I am not trying to get you to do anything different, but I do hope that my posts will help you to better understand why some people in the USA would use an old school bull on their herds. Like I said, they can fix a bunch of problems that were created while chasing show ring fads & the "bigger is better" mentaility. As the French cattlemen who graze waaaay up in the rugged Alps, where there is no grain to feed, told my dad... man almost always messes breeds up, but nature has a way of fixing all of those problems (or something similar). Kit Pharo also says something very similar too. I think that they are both correct. The reason why we are cycling back here, IMHO, is because what was attempted on a very large scale here in the USA did not work (how many have to have a second income source just to support their herds?) & now people are wising up & heading back towards the direction where cattle used to be, not because they will bring more per head, but because the entire herd is often more profitable. High corn, high fuel, etc. will only speed up this process, IMHO. Many may not want frame 4 cattle, but they may want to turn frame 7's into frame 5''s or 6's & an old school Shorthorn bull will do that. Just like many may not want to grass finish, but they may want to be able to start running their cows on grass alone with no supplemental feed or creep feed, before sending their calves to the feedlot. Again, even though they may not be able to do that now, an old school Shorthorn bull should enable them to be able to do that. Although it may take 2 generations in some cases.
Jake's Proud Jazz, Captain Obvious, Wild Side & a few others are the closest things to "old school" Shorthorn's running around today. If I were a Shorthorn breeder, I'd be looking hard at those types of bulls & virtually anything from the 1960's that I could get a hold of.
I don''t know all of the answers & I can be wrong, but let's revisit this subject in 3 years, unless we die 1st or the Lord return's 1st. However, if we are still here, I think that we may see a bunch more USA herds trending towards smaller cattle than we what are seeing right now. It's amazing how more & more are buying into the smaller cattle each year & I just don't see that slowing down, IMHO. But, we will see... If I am right and / or if corn & fuel goes even higher, those who start now will be ahead & they may be the only ones still in business, besides those with big outside incomes with plenty of money to spend!! Again, just my opinion.
Okotoks said:
Aussie said:
TJ you are doing a great job promoting your breed. I do not wish to get in to a discusion with you about the merits or otherwise of Lowlines. I have had quite a bit of experience with the breed and some of the breeders of your Australian cattle I know quite well.
The point of the thread is extremes and why cattle have to breed to either end of the spectrum.
But I will answer your questions.
First I will draw your attention to our optimum finishing weight again 240 to 340kg dressed this is were the most money is paid a heavy carcase.
Growth rates. Small frame cattle do finish quicker (more lbs/kg) in a shorter time so it can be said they grow quicker but they run out of steam. They may work for small freezer beef but will not grow big enough for our grid structure. They actually become less efficient once finished if trying to push to a higher weight as it takes more feed to add fat than muscle.
Calves are weaned at 300kg and sold between 520 and 620kg lwt these cattle are sold in the spring to early summer when grass is plentiful so it easy to put weight on. The more weight the more money made. ave gain winter .6 kg spring/summer 1.2to 2 kg on grass with silage supplement
There is no premium here for the USDA grading system
Calves born in August sold December approx 16 months.
I put this herd up as an example of genetics v environment they are not mine.
For those of us that think in pounds the conversion is 2.2 lbs per kg. So 540 lbs. to 750 lbs. dressed
Weaned at 660lbs. and sold at 1150 to 1365 lbs.
ave gain winter .6 kg spring/summer 1.2to 2 kg on grass with silage supplement
1.33 lbs. 2.65 to 4.4 lbs. per day
