Shorthorns/Angus extremes can someone explain ?

[OH Breeder]

First let me preface my opinion that we are nobody and we breed for local market. So.....

The cattle industry in my mind is Much like the auto industry. The major three dominated the markets for years with big heavy gas guzzler's that were hugely inefficient. Some foreign company's saw an opportunity. (Honda's are built 45 minutes from me).They brought in smaller lighter more compact models that eventually over took the market. The Foreign cars even took it one step further and gave the consumer more room in side a more compact car that was more efficient.

So how does this relate to cattle......Well for me... it is like this

I was raised in the 70's and 80's and saw the cattle shift from smaller compact cattle 70's to highly inefficient large heavy models 80's that in the end took a huge amount of resources to maintain. If I am going to go on a road trip I certainly would rather take the compact fuel efficient car for the long haul. Same with cattle for me. Cattle that we keep around fall in the mid 4-5 frame scores a couple at 6. They are very efficient and affordable for me to feed. We have bred the 50" steer to efficiently carry a 1350# carcass with less inputs than previously required. We have taken our compact cows and made them even more cost effective. They have more room today than they did years ago and for my family have reduced expenses yielding improved results.
I am not sure that makes any sense to anyone but I am a car nut. I see my gals in the pasture as efficient models with minimal inputs. I don't drive a Semi to the grocery store so why would I want frame 7-8 cattle?
We have a good local market.Thank the Lord. I am not bound to the stock yard. We developed our own business by selling "custom meats".

 

[TJ]

T.J., thanks for including JJC Wild Side on your list of "old school" genetics that continue to work well.  What other bulls besides Jazz and CO are your "few others"?

I do like a lot of things about Wildside, but I don't know that I would go as far as call Wild Side "old school".  What I more or less said was that he's one of the closest current Shorthorn bulls to being "old school" & he is IMHO. But, a true 1950's - 1960's type he's probably not.   Still, he's the grandsire of my 4.5  frame Shorthorn female & based on my limited knowledge, he doesn't seem to sire big calves at birth.  He's a pretty nice looking bull that seems to be a lot closer to a 1950's - 60's bull than most.

As far as naming the others, I do have several in mind that probably fit the bill pretty closely, but beyond naming Gizmo (another bull that I wouldn't exactly call "old school", but he is much closer than most), I really do not see the need.  What I will say is that any Shorthorn bull that can sire 5 frames or smaller, sires bw's consistently under 85, with the natural fleshing ability to fatten on grass alone, is an old school bull, IMHO.  Anything else that doesn't fit that description is probably just that... something else.  Although some are much, much closer than others.  All I was attempting to do was to name a few bulls that were at least fairly close, IMHO.

 

[JTM]

A little self promoting, but man this guy looked freakin awesome in the pasture tonight! Moderate frame that will grow thick calves on grass.

 

[jaimiediamond]

A little self promoting, but man this guy looked freakin awesome in the pasture tonight! Moderate frame that will grow thick calves on grass.

I am very keen on the Complete bull and if he were mine I would be blowing his horn all the time.  I think next spring you will have a lot of calves do the talking for him! Really looking forward to updated pictures at some point  <rock>

 

[sue]

OH Breeder - I get the feeling you might have a 80's trans am parked in the garage ... just in case you want to go to a car show. Having said that - love the comparison.
More importantly  if you raise 4 or 5 frame british cattle you already know the vigor and additional growth that transcend to a bull customer. I just toured yesterday through a herd in Michigan that using a 4 frame RA back on 5 fr sh- the llbs of calf at side would blow your mind? Most had calves at 50% of the body wt yesterday @ 5pm .... and they were another 90 days from weaning??

JTM- I had the best conversasion this week about the 3/4 complete bull. I think we need to get pics of his calves in oh. Wheels are a turnin.  i loved the 'what the heck is that " comments. Folks this extra "snap" that this bull has is pure and free. Honestly - if you have not traveled thru groups of SH x An back to sh or an ( 3/4 end product) .... get out there or just ask me. Or call Josh Moreland for your fall shipment of semen of Complete- I strongly recommend him back on british base.

I think about the folks in TX and OK suffering in drought- that really need to maintain a moderate mature cow size  but need that shot of vigor in a calf crop to survive....
dont assume anyone needs to add growth  to the cow base at the expense of buying additional groceries?? That free shot of "vigor" comes in a rotational cross- please in a time of "need" dont breed for the "transam" it's a thing of the past . Purebred british producers - keep your eye on the ball.

 

[shortdawg]

A little self promoting, but man this guy looked freakin awesome in the pasture tonight! Moderate frame that will grow thick calves on grass.

nice bull

 

[Aussie]

Wanted to bump this to get some feedback from A&T and sjcattle. I would like your opinions.  (thumbsup)

 

[vanridge]

We don't like our cows too big. The first time my brother came for a visit and looked at our herd of hodge podge cattle I told him they are a lot smaller than what you are used to. He said they aren't that small, they just don't have a whole lot of leg on 'em.  Our smallest cow probably weighs in at 1200 lbs and she always weans a 600+ lbs calf. I think my ideal frame score is between a 5 and a 6 (at the most) We are crossing with shorthorn and black angus. Now, this year at our fair my son took a black angus steer that was close to one of the smallest (frame score) steers there. He walked across the scale at 1210. He was way up in the top 1/2 for weight.  However,  I think the judge thought he was too small and didn't like him very much. ( the judge did not know the weights of the steers) My significant other always says the difference between a 5 and 6 frame score is, the 6 has a couple inches of extra leg. Sometimes I wonder if we are making our cows to small.....

 

[comercialfarmer]

Angus is easy to explain, its called CAB and the push for marketing a black hided animal.  Framey terminal bulls are advertised to give producers some growth, but keep the black hide. And  in some programs, there is a premium for certified sires. 

Cattle still sell by the pound and on average, a framey bull is going to add more growth potential than a non-framey full.  Not arguing with anyone as to what their cattle can do, just saying on average.  And when a majority of producers are still selling in the ring, its the OPINION of buyers that matters. In our area, fleshy early maturing calves don't bring as much as calves that have a little frame.  British x Exotic crosses seem to hit the mark pretty well.  To me this explains the drive behind the large frame cattle and is generally supported by producers that are feedlot oriented.  (it is a replacement for the exotic cross to try to get your cake and eat it too). 

The push behind the idea of the small framed cattle has already been explained here, supported by those touting efficiency in cows and grass finished beef. 

Like this argument always ends, it all goes back to what your production goals are and the environment you have to work with. 

I don't have a problem with extremes in cattle as terminal crosses (as these genetics will be dumped and not retained).  But when you are retaining genetics, adding something of extreme in the background will always have a chance to come back and haunt you.  I would rather see consistency several generations back.