Shorthorns role in the cattle industry

[JTM]

My random thoughts of the evening...
As a breed Shorthorns have to be able to offer something consistent and valuable to the commercial cattle industry. Or else how are we going to get noticed? It seems that a lot of breeders follow the line of thought that we must make everything "balanced" when it comes to performance. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for balanced traits but is a particular breed really suppose to be balanced? I guess at this point in my cattle learning journey I would venture to say that balance could more ideally be accomplished through a crossbreeding program. In the Shorthorn breed focusing on the traits that the breed excels in like maternal instinct, convenience traits (CE, udders, fertility, etc.), marbling, feed conversion, carcass quality, and docility would be the ideal goal in my mind. The result of these practices would create cattle that would potentially wean a lot of lbs. per acre. In my opinion the only downside would be yearling and carcass weights being fairly low when selecting for these traits. That's where the continental breed comes in to balance out the yearling growth and carcass weight. It seems to me that chasing growth and yearling weights with Shorthorn cattle has not worked too well over the years... Large bad udders, bad feet, low fertility, large calves at birth. These aren't traits that a maternal breed should have... All I know is that I love Shorthorn cattle and I really love when they do what they are supposed to do... Please share your thoughts. Let's try to keep it tactful so that we can learn from each other. ;D

 

[RyanChandler]

I agree with what you're saying and I agree every breed shouldn't be perfectly 'balanced'---  but there has to be minimums! And in my opinion, many shorthorns are far below what I consider  'minimum' in terms of growth.  Without any upward pressure on growth, if you only focus on maternal instinct / convenience traits you will end up with a herd of jerseys!! All the positive attributes you associate with Shorthorns, Jersey cattle do them better. Why aren't you promoting jerseys? Easy, you know they're too specialized; they don't have enough balance!!

I've said this before but to me it's getting easier to define the direction I want to push my herd in. Go to sales, analyze sale catalogs, what are the parameters for the TYPE of bulls that are consistently high sellers? Which TYPE of bulls is the industry demanding?

Focusing on 'the traits we excel in' is not enough. In my opinion, those are givens; those are minimums in terms of the industry's acceptable standards. Coming from clubby cattle you might think these characteristics are rare, they're not. They're implicit in most breed of cattle.

To be more commercially acceptable:

Shorthorns need more performance/substance.  More performance WITHOUT more frame.  Bulls whose daughters mature at 12-1300lbs. We need cows that calve 7% of their body weight and wean 50%. We need our bull calves to then have enough gas to be 6 frame 1200lb yearlings.  We don't need little pudgy 8" eye, 4 frame bulls, nor do we need 8 frame 1400lb yearling weights. This is what the industry demands. This is the direction my herd is going in.

 

[justintime]

In order for the Shorthorn breed to gain commercial acceptance, we don't need to be perfectly balanced. That said we do need more herds that are producing more consistency and in numbers. I happen to think that the Shorthorn breed does have a role in the commercial beef business and gaining more acceptance in the industry does not come in the short term, but rather in the long term.
I have always said that the main problem with the Shorthorn breed is not the cattle themselves but the people who own them. Don't take me wrong here, as this breed has a great set of people in it. What I mean by that statement, is that we need more people who are willing to set long term goals and be willing to direct their breeding programs to what they see the industry demanding. I have heard so many Shorthorn breeders say that they cannot sell a Shorthorn bull in their area. I often wonder how hard and how long they have tried and what have they done differently to improve their chances of selling one.  In order for any major movement into the commercial industry we need some breeders in all areas of the country who are willing to produced breeding stock in numbers. By breeding stock, I mean both sexes... bulls and females. It really isn't very hard to sell Shorthorn and Shorthorn cross females. One of the problems I have seen in my own operation over the years, was that I had to sell my females to pay my bills. Many years ago, I made a commitment to change this, and I think it is finally starting to happen. It has happened because of several reasons.
There will always be a segment of the breed that focuses on producing show cattle, especially females. I do not see this as being a bad thing, but a very good thing. That does not mean I have to follow what these breeders are doing, and it doesn't mean I have to strictly avoid the breeding stock they produce. I have admiration for how they have developed their markets and I certainly wish we had more breeders who focused like the " show " side of the breed in designing the " commercial "side of the breed. We do have a number of breeders who are doing this but we certainly could use more of them.
I think you have to understand what the industry wants particularly in the area you live in. It has been said, and I believe it is true in most cases, that 80% of your cattle will sell within 200 miles of where you live. If this is true, and I think it is, then you better understand what cattle producers are wanting in that area. xbar says that where he lives, the industry wants cows that mature at 1200-1300 lbs. I believe that would be very true for what I know of where he lives. Where I live, we need to have cows a little bigger. If I had a cowherd that averaged 1200-1300 lbs in mature size, I doubt that I would sell many bulls or females for breeding stock. Where I live, most producers want 1400-1500 lb cows. That does not mean that xbar is wrong. It means we are both right as we are trying to produce what our industry wants in our area, and this is the main reason I have oftentimes said that we should not be dictating what other breeders are doing in other areas of the country.
Selling more bulls is hard work. For many years, I tried to sell 10-12 bulls each year and worked hard to get it done by private treaty on the farm. I found it interesting that I started to sell more Shorthorn bulls when we started to sell Charolais bulls as well. One of the keys to selling bulls is getting people to come and look at them. One breeder told me recently, that he sells bulls to over 80% of the people that come to look and see what he has. He said that the hard work is getting them to come. I agree with him. When I started selling Charolais bulls as well, we got more people to come to see our bulls. Many of them commented that they did not know there were Shorthorns that could compete with other breeds. I don't think they spent too much time looking. We sold several Shorthorn bulls to people who came to look at the Charolais bulls in the pen. One commercial man purchased 3 Charolais bulls on his first visit to our farm. The following year he came back to look again and he was looking for two more bulls. He was impressed with how the Shorthorn bulls were not outpowered by the Charolais bulls and he said that he could remember the great Shorthorn cross cows that his grand father had raised.( I hear that comment a lot!!). He decided to buy one Charolais and one Shorthorn bull. When I decided to disperse our Char herd I thought I would probably lose this customer but he has continued to come back and he is now our best bull customer and he has purchased 23 Shorthorn bulls in the past 10 years. Developing commercial acceptance takes long term goals and it comes in very small steps.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I think alot of the show cattle deals are realizing the jig's up-with an ever narrowing gene pool of what really arent commercially functional cattle-that really dont grow that well,yet are huge at birth or are hard calving in other respects.Sullivan is making somewhat of a changeover into the "Limited Edition'-Lauer deals-and through attrition-some of those genetics are available to mere mortals-small breeders like me and alot of general breeders-who for one reason or another-cant see committing to 50-100 straws of semen-especially on an unproven bull.But anyone who can create the volume of cattle he does (doesnt include hundreds of unseen ones that didnt make the grade) with the kind of total expense involved in these endeavors-is gonna try and create a real market in order to make economic sense.So red in some arenas will be the new roan,and I really think that some commercial breeders will partake as they allready have (DOWN HERE).Other than the obvious needed improvements-changes(no pun intended)one other major reason is to get uniform and black color on the resultant calves-and given that alot of these new bulls may go back to LTD Edition (Black-red gene like Lifeline or way back to Enticer-Mark 4-or Rodeo who were fullblood maine and chi sons or grandsons?)-Then it will work:as long as the basic traits-reporting arent manufactured O0

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I'm terrifying. :-\

 

[JTM]

Yes Mark, traits reporting is a manufacturing process apparently. I definitely agree that there has to be some kind of balance. I also believe that there are cattle capable of calving ease along with yearling growth. I like the goals that you have XBAR. Very similar to mine. Although it is very hard to figure out what genetics within the breed will give you those results. JIT makes a good point in that you need to have a plan and stick to that plan. It could involve several different scenarios of cattle.

 

[Lucky_P]

Josh,
Having spent my entire life in commercial cow calf production - and nearly 30 years involved in predominantly food-animal veterinary medicine pursuits, I've had minimal experience with Shorthorns - just almost never saw them in the areas where I was.  Remember one friend's family having some ancient old SHxHereford cows in their herd (Alabama), and had one client in TN whose family had Shorthorns, but all the work we ever did for them was on the dairy - though I did buy a couple of HOxSH heifers from them once - a blue and a red roan, which we sold to a PH breeder to use as embryo recips, when we moved.

Beef herd here has been principally a SimmentalxAngus mix since 1986, breeding back toward the Angus side since 2006.  Just was not getting what I felt we needed - other than black haircoat - from the Angus deal. Started breeding most of the high-percentage Angus cows to Shorthorn sires (red) about 6 years ago, to make some cows to breed Sm for terminal stocker/feeder calf production.  Have been very pleased with the SH-sired steer calves, and most of the heifers have been better than most of the Angus-sired heifers- and fairly comparable to the Simmental-sired heifers. Only have a few Shorthorn sired heifers in currently in production, with a goodly number more coming on, so it's too soon for us to make a firm assessment of how they're gonna work for us.

We're currently taking a hiatus from breeding many more Shorthorn crosses, as the farm manager wants to swing back toward the Simmental side to get more white/blaze faces, but I'm convinced that the right Shorthorn bulls offer a lot that commercial beef producers could utilize - but, for many, it seems that that train has already left the station; we don't want big hair, freaky neck extension, or 100+ lb birth weights - and those of you who are producing 'commercial-oriented' Shorthorns don't get much press or exposure.
I'm not sure how roan or RWM calves would be accepted at the local livestock auction - we're getting lots of red calves, and at least for the past couple of years, they've not been discounted, compared to their black counterparts.

I'm not even sure, any more, how I stumbled upon SteerPlanet, but I have learned a lot about the breed from some of you here who have been very helpful in steering me in what I think is probably the right direction in bull selection, and for that, I'm thankful.

 

[aj]

In my opinion......if you are serious about the deal......set up say four indexes......stayability, fleshing ability, marbling, and disposition. Throw the yearling weights out of the equation. Throw the WDA out of the equation. Raise cattle that make money for the cow calf producer. If the feedlot are concerned about maxing out adg and carcass's.......have them buy calves sired by terminal breeds......OR let them buy up the grassland land up and raise their own kinda cattle. The feedlot guys don't have to come up with the land capital in this equation. If they wanna raise calves that gain 5 pounds aday.......let em raise them their selves. You could specialize in marbling and fleshing ability.In my opinion the shorthorn breed trys to raise cattle that do everything.......and thus they fit into no schemes of crossbreeding programs......unless it is the heterosis factor only.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

AJ put into words what I was thinking but I relate things in a simpler fashion-from what Ive seen-the Shorthorn simm cross and some other black r charolais or limmi variations really seem to provide some of the needed traits that a ShorthornxShorthorn deal doesnt do in one generation-relative to;doability, growth ,weaning wieghts,and to some extent birth wts. That isnt to say that Simms and charolais are necessarily any easier calvingr that the Angus x will be any thicker;OR EYE APPEALING etc-but they do compliment each other-and bottom line-I think they'd fill in the blanks as far as carcass quality-and just better eating crossed with Shorts..As far as temperament-thats case by case in any breed:hands down,Shorts would have the least stooopid ones per any count. But: look how many black recips raise Shorthorn ets-RE the maternal-So it almost comes back to-how they calve and uniformity in:color,and frame. The rest of the stats probably wouldnt hold as muchIMMEDIATE wieght as you think-unless the producer is old enough-or had a grandfather etc with the fabled Short cross cows etc. O0

 

[librarian]

As I understand it, the historical role of Shorthorns in beef production was to increase the size and accelerate the maturity of local grade cattle.  They were sort of a terminator cross that terminated locally adapted smaller land races that had been productive in low input scenarios.  Beef Shorthorns were not low input cattle, nor particularly maternal other than being milky.
Production models change with changing technology and the industry will always want to maximize production and minimize cost to themselves.  This is where producers must eventual refuse to cooperate with an unsustainable system.
I believe that the maternal characteristics in Shorthorns have been selected for and preserved through the Dual Purpose bloodlines. 
To evolve from a terminator cross to a functional foundation beef animal  seems a noble goal to me.

 

[aj]

I would say set up a herd......in the middle of no where. Maybe like the line ones in Montana or where ever. Set up indexes. Don't do shows. Don't trade cattle for political reasons. Cull on the four indexes. Don't try flavour of the month deals. I don't think you need alot of outside genetics. Be a Keith Lauer. It would take at least 15 years to get a handle on stayability cattle. Let a little bit of genetic drift happen. Identify that cow after 20 years that is 105 index on fleshing ability. The cow who's off spring are high marbling via sonagram or kill sheets. Know the disposition of her cows. Then transplant that cow instead of some show champ. Thats where you make the progress in my opinion. Are there any Angus herds set up like that? I know alot of them are just stacking high yearling weights......they are selling th eheck out of bulls.........but there is some talk out in the country about cows being to big. jmo

 

[huntaway]

In my opinion......if you are serious about the deal......set up say four indexes......stayability, fleshing ability, marbling, and disposition. Throw the yearling weights out of the equation. Throw the WDA out of the equation. Raise cattle that make money for the cow calf producer.

I wonder after 20 years of staying true to this selection what they would look like. Your not selecting for low growth but with no selection for growth how far off something like the Lowline Angus deal would you be or Galloway but some of them might have more growth than I imagine. Maybe a Durham Down?

 

[librarian]

AJ's proposal sounds practical to me, especially since I am bound for the middle of Nowhere with about 15 years of working life and a handful of Shorthorns.
How are the index's to be measured?
Maybe break them down into measurable components to standardize the results among herds following the program.  Eventually local strains would emerge that could be outcrossed to the other herds without losing the selection direction.
My only difference of opinion would be on flushing. Pinebank has an Angus program with similar goals, but all the breeding is natural service, best sons of best bulls out of best cows to keep the selection pressure moving forward. 
I think we want herds with high average indexes, not outstanding individual animals to replicate.

 

[aj]

You don't keep back any heifer calves that don't index over 100.......for marbling and fleshing ability....two compatable traits. They must pass the stayability and dispositions. You take these hundred females....calve them out and select a....or the bull calf with the best growth rate. You prioritize your selection that way. Sustainable performance. Then through genetic drift or selection in the next generation you work on growth......within your baseline females. You can still select for feedlot growth yet your base is sustainable. If you don't set parameters......your bwts start creeping up. Your cow size starts creeping up. It's not that hard. You simply select for the best growth you can get......yet you stay within whatever your parameters are for bwt cow size or whatever you set your indexes are. Throwing all your selection simply by maxing out yearling weights is single trait selection.

 

[JTM]

In my opinion......if you are serious about the deal......set up say four indexes......stayability, fleshing ability, marbling, and disposition. Throw the yearling weights out of the equation. Throw the WDA out of the equation. Raise cattle that make money for the cow calf producer. If the feedlot are concerned about maxing out adg and carcass's.......have them buy calves sired by terminal breeds......OR let them buy up the grassland land up and raise their own kinda cattle. The feedlot guys don't have to come up with the land capital in this equation. If they wanna raise calves that gain 5 pounds aday.......let em raise them their selves. You could specialize in marbling and fleshing ability.In my opinion the shorthorn breed trys to raise cattle that do everything.......and thus they fit into no schemes of crossbreeding programs......unless it is the heterosis factor only.

quote author=aj link=topic=50942.msg412824#msg412824 date=1409539505]
I would say set up a herd......in the middle of no where. Maybe like the line ones in Montana or where ever. Set up indexes. Don't do shows. Don't trade cattle for political reasons. Cull on the four indexes. Don't try flavour of the month deals. I don't think you need alot of outside genetics. Be a Keith Lauer. It would take at least 15 years to get a handle on stayability cattle. Let a little bit of genetic drift happen. Identify that cow after 20 years that is 105 index on fleshing ability. The cow who's off spring are high marbling via sonagram or kill sheets. Know the disposition of her cows. Then transplant that cow instead of some show champ. Thats where you make the progress in my opinion. Are there any Angus herds set up like that? I know alot of them are just stacking high yearling weights......they are selling th eheck out of bulls.........but there is some talk out in the country about cows being to big. jmo
[/quote]Man AJ, you are on fire with this one. You got what I was getting at. I don't care about the flavor of the month or what people think are the best sellers, I'm going to stick to the plan. Your suggestions are very good and definitely help me because that is basically what I want but I'm still learning how to use EPD's and the data. (thumbsup)

 

[BTDT]

I am really trying to put some solid thoughts together on this.  Let me ponder and think a few things out and I will get back to you.

 

[aj]

If the base parameters of a base of a seedstock producer isn't the same as the base parameters of the local bull buyers herd you have a problem.

 

[Mill Iron A]

Making shorthorns relevant is an interesting subject. You have already made the right step by entering into the multibreed database. That helps a bunch. What you should learn from this is that you are way behind on growth. All of the traits you are talking about are very good. Too bad there are already at least 3 other breeds that do that and still grow way better.... Promoting a breed is a good thing but as a buyer I don't care what breed you have. It's all about the individual breeder. I'm going to buck the trend and say you can have it all. True, the same cattle that gain 5 lbs a day probably won't make it in some parts of the country. But you can balance your breed for all traits. Then if another breed grows better who cares? Your goal is not to be a terminal breed but a maternal base but that doesn't mean you can just turn a blind eye to growth. You have to sustain it. Balanced epds are a must in this industry. That doesn't mean you need to only look on paper and that you need extreme carcass and curve bending genetics..it just means you need to at least be cognizant of the direction you are headed. Bring me moderate big bellied good footed non-dairy looking shorthorns that are adequate in muscle and exhibit bonzma feminity and I could very well add them into a commercial herd. Big framed, hard doing, dairy cattle aren't going to work. Oh and in a lot of western operations milk can be a four letter word so be careful about promoting that too much.

 

[oakview]

You want information and documentation?  Have you taken a look at the Waukaru sale catalog?  In my opinion, the most dedicated commercially oriented Shorthorn herd anywhere.  Are there commercial operations that want/need more information? 

 

[JTM]

Making shorthorns relevant is an interesting subject. You have already made the right step by entering into the multibreed database. That helps a bunch. What you should learn from this is that you are way behind on growth. All of the traits you are talking about are very good. Too bad there are already at least 3 other breeds that do that and still grow way better.... Promoting a breed is a good thing but as a buyer I don't care what breed you have. It's all about the individual breeder. I'm going to buck the trend and say you can have it all. True, the same cattle that gain 5 lbs a day probably won't make it in some parts of the country. But you can balance your breed for all traits. Then if another breed grows better who cares? Your goal is not to be a terminal breed but a maternal base but that doesn't mean you can just turn a blind eye to growth. You have to sustain it. Balanced epds are a must in this industry. That doesn't mean you need to only look on paper and that you need extreme carcass and curve bending genetics..it just means you need to at least be cognizant of the direction you are headed. Bring me moderate big bellied good footed non-dairy looking shorthorns that are adequate in muscle and exhibit bonzma feminity and I could very well add them into a commercial herd. Big framed, hard doing, dairy cattle aren't going to work. Oh and in a lot of western operations milk can be a four letter word so be careful about promoting that too much.

Mill Iron A, I totally agree with everything you have said here. These breeds have been using the tools available and the systems to their advantage for much longer. The Shorthorn breed is in a position where more and more breeders could very soon start entering data, using indexes, and quickly moving our breed towards commercial acceptance. We have a motivated board, CEO, and a lot of committee members that are very passionate about making progress. I agree that we need to have balanced epd's and overall performance. My approach will be to get there someday and try to make it sooner than later... Great reply by the way.