shorthorns

[OH Breeder]

Lets as JIT on that one.....heat and canadian shorthorns

 

[NHR]

I have Trump and Rodeo Drive bloodlines and dont have any issues with running them on native prairie grasses in Texas. In matter of fact my shorthorns came through the 2-1/2 yr drought better then my commercial cows. So the argument against shorthorns is pretty null on my place.

 

[garybob]

I have Trump and Rodeo Drive bloodlines and dont have any issues with running them on native prairie grasses in Texas. In matter of fact my shorthorns came through the 2-1/2 yr drought better then my commercial cows. So the argument against shorthorns is pretty null on my place.

I will never argue against the adaptability of Rodeo Drive cattle. They were the champs, at my place those first two years.  What worked the best was the ones with Rodeo drive on top & bottom, but a generation back on both sides, in other words, double-bred Rodeo Drive Grand-daughters. These always looked good, they were as hairy as needed during the winter, but, come Easter weekend, they started to shed off, and stayed fat-n-sassy all year 'round. I've never had a problem with any Tarheel-Drive, or RR's Drive-derived cattle. The best ones were from a Bull called "CT Quiet Commish"--Fescue Endophyte-tolerant Son-of-a-guns! When I started going towards moderate-framed cattle, I used GFS Creole, kept those daughters, bred them back to Carnegie, and, I am in the process of acquiring a new Bull. Currently, my cows are running with a Black Gelbvieh bull at Daddy's.
Where I think we went wrong, as a breed, was letting DAIRY (Red Holstein-crossed) Shorthorns into the appendix registry, under the disguise as "Dual-Purpose" Shorthorns, back when the rule of thumb was, "when in doubt, frame them out". That's why we went so darned extreme, as  a breed, the other way, in order to make up for that Faux-Paux.

I have NEVER, mark my words, been ANTI Shorthorn. Just disagree with the direction the breed continues to travel.

Whenever someone pro-commercial Shorthorns gets on here, just like other message boards, they get hammered to death. Think about this, next time you all get to missing Ron Bolze.

 

[SKF]

I did not know that cattle coming from up north take that long to get use to the heat. Our shorthorns are the only ones from up north. We do have some maines and a shorthorn cross from out west and the heat does not bother them as it does our northeren cattle. Maybe I need to find some southern shorthorns.

 

[OH Breeder]

I have Trump and Rodeo Drive bloodlines and dont have any issues with running them on native prairie grasses in Texas. In matter of fact my shorthorns came through the 2-1/2 yr drought better then my commercial cows. So the argument against shorthorns is pretty null on my place.

I will never argue against the adaptability of Rodeo Drive cattle. They were the champs, at my place those first two years.  What worked the best was the ones with Rodeo drive on top & bottom, but a generation back on both sides, in other words, double-bred Rodeo Drive Grand-daughters. These always looked good, they were as hairy as needed during the winter, but, come Easter weekend, they started to shed off, and stayed fat-n-sassy all year 'round. I've never had a problem with any Tarheel-Drive, or RR's Drive-derived cattle. The best ones were from a Bull called "CT Quiet Commish"--Fescue Endophyte-tolerant Son-of-a-guns! When I started going towards moderate-framed cattle, I used GFS Creole, kept those daughters, bred them back to Carnegie, and, I am in the process of acquiring a new Bull. Currently, my cows are running with a Black Gelbvieh bull at Daddy's.
Where I think we went wrong, as a breed, was letting DAIRY (Red Holstein-crossed) Shorthorns into the appendix registry, under the disguise as "Dual-Purpose" Shorthorns, back when the rule of thumb was, "when in doubt, frame them out". That's why we went so darned extreme, as  a breed, the other way, in order to make up for that Faux-Paux.

I have NEVER, mark my words, been ANTI Shorthorn. Just disagree with the direction the breed continues to travel.

Whenever someone pro-commercial Shorthorns gets on here, just like other message boards, they get hammered to death. Think about this, next time you all get to missing Ron Bolze.

It doesn' t matter to me if you are for or against commercial cattle. There will always be small hobby breeders, small show herds and it does not always reflect what is standing in the feedlot. From a marketing perspective etc, you have to admire some of the folks in the breed currently that are really making head way. If you are upset with the direction of the commercial side of things, then I guess who is marketing for the commercial interests of shorthorn breeders?
I just see things as everyone may be right. It is just our opinion. If you are commercial then obivously your likes and dislikes for different bloodlines may not work in a show herd and vice versa, some of the show cattle would not work in your commercial herd. I don't have acres and acres of pasture. I am extremely limited and have to supplement my herd. Most of the ground in our area is farm ground very little livestock. Pasture comes with a premium. WIth that being said, all they have to do is gain on a round bale and supplement grain.
I don't think I am trying to hammer anyone, I am just saying that one way of thinking is not the way of the world. It takes a happy balance.  

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Get your guns loaded ladies and gents.

Trump cattle stink when you get them off the self feeder. Period. RD aint a whole lot better. RD cows at least raise calves while they look they are gunna die. RD was a frame 7 plus bull who never had an easy keepin day in his life. his daughters are tremendous producers if you like feeding grain to your cows on pasture.

Rd Trump n Trump Rds look awesome on feed but lord help you when you turn em out. I had a Trump that I put magnet after magnet in because I thought she had hardware. Fund out it wasnt hardware disease it was harddoin disease. And dont tell me its one case. I have yet to know anyone who wasnt dissapointed in their Trump cattle in the pasture. And I know quite a few that tried.

What Bull do you think Bolze was talking about with his first state of the union address when he talked about (i paraphrase) " all these people so proud of their emaciated looking frame 8 cows with udders that look like four carrots hanging on a string"?

 

[justintime]

You know I really hate it when you guys make blanket statements about a bloodline or a breed. Yuppiecowboy says all Trump cattle stink once the get them off the self feeder. That may be true of many of them, and it may also be true of most of them, but I do not think it is true of ALL cattle that carry the TRUMP bloodline. Say thing goes for the Rodeo Drive cattle or any others. I don't have big bunches of Trump in my herd but I do have several Trump grandaughters. Most of them are very easy fleshing but I have tried to select really thick made females from this line. I flushed a Trump daughter this spring, because she was moderate framed, has a perfect udder, and has worked well in a commercial herd setting. I have used 2 sons of Rodeo Drive both of which worked well for us. Both left us some excellent daughters The RD son I have now, was an ET calf born here. He weighed 3150 lbs this spring and he stays in great shape on pasture. I am sure most of you will say he is way too big, and you are right, but his sons have been very popular with our commercial bull buyers and his daughters are beautiful and are fertile. I have had a real hard time keeping daughters as they sell too easily.I am crossing the daughters I have to bulls like Major Leroy, Saskvalley Pioneer and Dunbeacon Venture , that is, to bulls that have excellent fleshing ability and some capacity and softness to them. It semes to be working, from the few calves I have this year from this cross.
In regards to the effects that environment has on cattle, I do think there are some major differences. There are some cattle that do not aclimatize easily especially when moved to an extreme different climate. I live in a rather extreme climate here. We can see lots of 100 degree days in the summer and it can drop to -40 on occasion in the winter. We can have long dry spells or we can get good rains.We have virtually no trees right here so we get lots of wind ( which in my opinion is worse than cold in the winter) No two years are alike. I am sure that it takes a different type of cow of any breed to thrive well in  southern Texas than it does here. I have sent cattle to Texas that have done very well for their new owners. I have also purchased cattle from Texas that have done good here. This is what makes the cattle business different and unique. There is no such thing as a model cow that is ideal in all areas. A good cow for your management may not even be a good cow for the management your neighbour provides his cattle.
I will agree that there are some cattle presently being promoted that I question if they will work anywhere in a real world setting. This is probably no different than any time in recent memory. It is up to you to breed the cattle you feel are best for your farm. If you can raise them, market them, pay the bills and feel good abouy what you are doing, who am I ( or who is anybody else ) to tell you that you are doing anything wrong. In the meantime, the converse is also true.... and that may include some people who are raising the dreading Trump cattle. So... if you don't like them, there is no law saying you have too.If you feel so strongly that you have a superior product, promote them and develop a market for them. If you are right, buyers will come your way and your business will flourish. I have always maintained that raising purebred breeding stock is alot like running a restuarant. Your success revolves around the product you offer, the way you promote your product, and the service you offer your customers. Lots of restuarants with good food have gone under because they didn't offer as good service as the restaurant down the street. Lots have gone under because of poor food quality. The same goes for the breeding stock business. And believe me, this is a business, whether you have 5 cows or 500.

 

[OH Breeder]

See JIT I knew with your wisdom and experience you would be able to provide an answer that just makes common sense! (clapping)

 

[Doc]

You know I really hate it when you guys make blanket statements about a bloodline or a breed. Yuppiecowboy says all Trump cattle stink once the get them off the self feeder. That may be true of many of them, and it may also be true of most of them, but I do not think it is true of ALL cattle that carry the TRUMP bloodline. Say thing goes for the Rodeo Drive cattle or any others. I don't have big bunches of Trump in my herd but I do have several Trump grandaughters. Most of them are very easy fleshing but I have tried to select really thick made females from this line. I flushed a Trump daughter this spring, because she was moderate framed, has a perfect udder, and has worked well in a commercial herd setting. I have used 2 sons of Rodeo Drive both of which worked well for us. Both left us some excellent daughters The RD son I have now, was an ET calf born here. He weighed 3150 lbs this spring and he stays in great shape on pasture. I am sure most of you will say he is way too big, and you are right, but his sons have been very popular with our commercial bull buyers and his daughters are beautiful and are fertile. I have had a real hard time keeping daughters as they sell too easily.I am crossing the daughters I have to bulls like Major Leroy, Saskvalley Pioneer and Dunbeacon Venture , that is, to bulls that have excellent fleshing ability and some capacity and softness to them. It semes to be working, from the few calves I have this year from this cross.
In regards to the effects that environment has on cattle, I do think there are some major differences. There are some cattle that do not aclimatize easily especially when moved to an extreme different climate. I live in a rather extreme climate here. We can see lots of 100 degree days in the summer and it can drop to -40 on occasion in the winter. We can have long dry spells or we can get good rains.We have virtually no trees right here so we get lots of wind ( which in my opinion is worse than cold in the winter) No two years are alike. I am sure that it takes a different type of cow of any breed to thrive well in  southern Texas than it does here. I have sent cattle to Texas that have done very well for their new owners. I have also purchased cattle from Texas that have done good here. This is what makes the cattle business different and unique. There is no such thing as a model cow that is ideal in all areas. A good cow for your management may not even be a good cow for the management your neighbour provides his cattle.
I will agree that there are some cattle presently being promoted that I question if they will work anywhere in a real world setting. This is probably no different than any time in recent memory. It is up to you to breed the cattle you feel are best for your farm. If you can raise them, market them, pay the bills and feel good abouy what you are doing, who am I ( or who is anybody else ) to tell you that you are doing anything wrong. In the meantime, the converse is also true.... and that may include some people who are raising the dreading Trump cattle. So... if you don't like them, there is no law saying you have too.If you feel so strongly that you have a superior product, promote them and develop a market for them. If you are right, buyers will come your way and your business will flourish. I have always maintained that raising purebred breeding stock is alot like running a restuarant. Your success revolves around the product you offer, the way you promote your product, and the service you offer your customers. Lots of restuarants with good food have gone under because they didn't offer as good service as the restaurant down the street. Lots have gone under because of poor food quality. The same goes for the breeding stock business. And believe me, this is a business, whether you have 5 cows or 500.

JIT, I agree with you 100%. That's all I was trying to say. It just tics me off a little bit when someone starts running something down with blanket statements wether it's cattle, trucks,people,etc. Especially when it is a breed of cattle I've been raising for 35 years & one they are raising theirself.I try not to be barn blind not just on my personal cattle but the breed as a whole. But if I'm going to raise & sell something then I'm going to be behind it 110%.

 

[TJ]

It doesn' t matter to me if you are for or against commercial cattle. There will always be small hobby breeders, small show herds and it does not always reflect what is standing in the feedlot. From a marketing perspective etc, you have to admire some of the folks in the breed currently that are really making head way. If you are upset with the direction of the commercial side of things, then I guess who is marketing for the commercial interests of shorthorn breeders?
I just see things as everyone may be right. It is just our opinion. If you are commercial then obivously your likes and dislikes for different bloodlines may not work in a show herd and vice versa, some of the show cattle would not work in your commercial herd. I don't have acres and acres of pasture. I am extremely limited and have to supplement my herd. Most of the ground in our area is farm ground very little livestock. Pasture comes with a premium. WIth that being said, all they have to do is gain on a round bale and supplement grain.
I don't think I am trying to hammer anyone, I am just saying that one way of thinking is not the way of the world. It takes a happy balance. 

I agree.  As long as hobby farmers exist & the number of them is growing... their will be a place & a market for all kinds of cattle.  Not all of those hobby cattle will work in the commercial word, but that is OK as long as they don't end up back in the commercial world.


My fullblood Lowlines certainly wont appeal to everyone, but I like them as a hobby.  My fullblood females are going to be too small for the commercial guy, but they are over 800 lbs.  I like them & I will use them to produce fullblood bulls that I will use to sire 1/2 bloods that should work for most commercial operations.  I talked to a guy in North Carolina tonight who said that all the commercial cattle people that he knew where looking for 900-1000 lb. cows, my 1/2's might even be a little big for that.  Another guy from southwest GA is trying to buy a group of 1/2 bloods from one of my friends for the same reasons...  more efficient cows & less feed costs (it appears the drought in the south is changing some minds about cow size). 

On the other extreme, I used to have some Chi's & they were monster cattle when we had them... one bull was well over 60 inches at the hip.  Honestly, the fullblood females were too big for the commercial guy, but many commercial people used Chi bulls to increase weaning weights. 

I agree not all cattle will work in the commercial world, but as long as the commercial guys stay clear of those cattle... everything will be Ok.

 

[NHR]

Get your guns loaded ladies and gents.

Trump cattle stink when you get them off the self feeder. Period. RD aint a whole lot better. RD cows at least raise calves while they look they are gunna die. RD was a frame 7 plus bull who never had an easy keepin day in his life. his daughters are tremendous producers if you like feeding grain to your cows on pasture.

Rd Trump n Trump Rds look awesome on feed but lord help you when you turn em out. I had a Trump that I put magnet after magnet in because I thought she had hardware. Fund out it wasnt hardware disease it was harddoin disease. And dont tell me its one case. I have yet to know anyone who wasnt dissapointed in their Trump cattle in the pasture. And I know quite a few that tried.

What Bull do you think Bolze was talking about with his first state of the union address when he talked about (i paraphrase) " all these people so proud of their emaciated looking frame 8 cows with udders that look like four carrots hanging on a string"?

Wow, did you see my earlier message about how good my Trump and RD cattle do on crappy grass. Sounds like I have the exact opposite of what you have. My Trumps are in the 5.5 to 6.0 frame score and my RD's are in the 6.0 range. Not that big as far as frame but they pack a lot of muscle and are wide hipped and spit out calves. The udders are awesome.

We worm twice per year and vaccinate once per year. Just sitting around and watching some of the other herds around here running charlois and angus influence they struggled for that past 2 years where is my cattle came through good. I admit I had to feed cubes from November until February this year because the drought just go to bad. My shorthorns run on 3 acres per full grown cow. My commercial crosses (non-shorthorn) required 7 acres per head to get through this drought. I will be breeding my shorthorn bull to my commercial cows so I can build replacements.

The show heifer pitcured gets fat just looking at feed. She eats 4 pounds of feed per day and the rest is native grass and Rye Grass hay (round bale). If I use bermuda hay she puts on to much weight. She has Trump lineage in her. The only knock that some judges use on her is that she is moderate.

If you dont want your Trumps them send them my way. I will gladly take them.

 

[red]

JIT- I believe you are clearly in the running for the silver tongue award!

I'm like you on blanket atatements. I've learned a lot when it comes to other breeds. Always hate it when someone says to me that Maines make terrible moms or are too docile. Individual cattle like people make up a  breed or bloodline. You have exceptions in every group. I've had some Maines that I would give a nickle for & others that I dealrly love. Same goes for show cattle. Whether you love or hate show cattle, it's an important part of the biz. The kids that buy these calves may one day be our next cattlepeople of the world.

Thanks for all by enlightening me on your breeds & by your beliefs. As I say, if I'm not learning, I'm dying.

Red

 

[frostback]

You know I am in a bad mood already so that may be way this tread rubbed me the wrong way, but I cant stand it when people make a bad decision, be it a purchase they made or breeding decision, that it is the bulls fault or the entire breed is no good. When do people start taking responsibility for THEIR actions. I have made purchases that have not done what I want but did I look for someone to blame, no I said that didn't work and went on finding one that did. Grow up people and take responsibility for your ideas and decisions.

 

[red]

Frostback- you sound like I felt this morning when I woke up w/ a killer headache.
I guess that's what I was thinking a little.
It's like Cowboy chewing me out for breeding Cowboy Cut to a Habanero cow. Bad breeding choice on my part. Am I going to give up on the bloodlines or the breed for my mistake? NO WAY!!!

Red

 

[garybob]

It doesn' t matter to me if you are for or against commercial cattle. There will always be small hobby breeders, small show herds and it does not always reflect what is standing in the feedlot. From a marketing perspective etc, you have to admire some of the folks in the breed currently that are really making head way. If you are upset with the direction of the commercial side of things, then I guess who is marketing for the commercial interests of shorthorn breeders?
I just see things as everyone may be right. It is just our opinion. If you are commercial then obivously your likes and dislikes for different bloodlines may not work in a show herd and vice versa, some of the show cattle would not work in your commercial herd. I don't have acres and acres of pasture. I am extremely limited and have to supplement my herd. Most of the ground in our area is farm ground very little livestock. Pasture comes with a premium. WIth that being said, all they have to do is gain on a round bale and supplement grain.
I don't think I am trying to hammer anyone, I am just saying that one way of thinking is not the way of the world. It takes a happy balance. 

I agree.  As long as hobby farmers exist & the number of them is growing... their will be a place & a market for all kinds of cattle.  Not all of those hobby cattle will work in the commercial word, but that is OK as long as they don't end up back in the commercial world.


My fullblood Lowlines certainly wont appeal to everyone, but I like them as a hobby.   My fullblood females are going to be too small for the commercial guy, but they are over 800 lbs.  I like them & I will use them to produce fullblood bulls that I will use to sire 1/2 bloods that should work for most commercial operations.  I talked to a guy in North Carolina tonight who said that all the commercial cattle people that he knew where looking for 900-1000 lb. cows, my 1/2's might even be a little big for that.  Another guy from southwest GA is trying to buy a group of 1/2 bloods from one of my friends for the same reasons...  more efficient cows & less feed costs (it appears the drought in the south is changing some minds about cow size).   

On the other extreme, I used to have some Chi's & they were monster cattle when we had them... one bull was well over 60 inches at the hip.  Honestly, the fullblood females were too big for the commercial guy, but many commercial people used Chi bulls to increase weaning weights.   

I agree not all cattle will work in the commercial world, but as long as the commercial guys stay clear of those cattle... everything will be Ok.

That's the trouble. They..... ARE ......winding up back in the commercial world. When this happens, and someone has a bad experience, do you guys think they are going to be open-minded like us, and identify the individual bloodlines, or genetic combinations that caused the train wreck? Not the coffee-shop bunch of Cattlemen around here, No sirree! Talk about blanket statements.
Again, I, too, feed cubes during the winter, and know the nutritional levels required of all classes of cattle, as well as what I am feeding to them. I meet the animals' requirements, both mineral and forages, and balance what's missing with protein and energy.
And, yes, I vaccinate( MFA Protocol) and deworm properly, twice a year. It wasn't "management" that caused my mishaps with these pampered cattle. I knew what I was doing. I was treating a second-calf cow like a cow, not a feedlot steer. SHE failed, I didn't. It was genetics. I don't know what else to say.
You all  have stated, in your posts on here, a disdain for the "mafia" that iced Bolze, but, ladies and gents, you continue to breed as if you haven't learned a  thing.

 

[justintime]

I am beginning to think I am repeating myself here. I do not think you can role all the offspring from any bloodline into a blanket statement in regards to anything. If you have been around the Shorthorn breed very long you certainly will remember the Ayatollah era and his offspring. Most everyone would say that Ayatollah sired cattle were too tall, too hard doing and not structurally sound to work most anywhere, let along a commercial setting. I will say this.... that the very best Shorthorn female I have ever set eyes on was a daughter of Ayatollah. She was a tank on a moderate frame. She was probably the thickest biggest volumed female I ever sae. She was raised in a herd that ran it's cows very commercially and this cow had a perfect udder and came in each fall with a big calf and was rebred to calve early the next spring. She milked well, but did not millk so much that she looked like an Indian dog when she came off native pastures in the fall. I tried many times to buy this cow but never got the job done. She was still working hard at 13 years of age and still looked like a 4 year old, that last time I tried to buy her.
My point is that we all need to applaud the good ones regardless of where they come from and what bloodline they represent. We also need to be willing to send the bad ones packing, regardless of the bloodline they represent. I think it is far too common for someone to keep a really poor animal simply because their sire or dam was a supposed " great one". I see this all the time at sales. I saw a cow sell in excess of $15,000 last year that in my world was not worth $500, but her dam was a " big name producer". I also saw a set of ET calves at a leading breeding establishment that really brought home the fact that they all aren't great ones. There was one heifer in this set that was truly outstanding, and she sold for more than 5 figures. Another couple of heifers were quite acceptable, but not in the same league as the real good one. One bull calf was good enough to make a good herd sire for someone....  BUT there was one heifer and one bull in this set of full sibs that were JUST PLAIN GOD AWFUL!!.
I have attached a picture of a Trump grandson I used that was about as easy fleshing as any cattle beast comes. I purchased this bull in Denver and bought him for a song simply because he was horned( that is a good topic for another discussion on here... that being, how much extra should polled cattle sell for comapred to horned cattle of equal quality). I turned him out with 35 polled females and we had 2 horned calves in his first and only calf crop. He died two days before he was supposed to go to stud ( he rolled over in the night and got stranded in a hollow, bloated and died) . As I said this bull gained weight just thinking about his feed and his offspring were the same. His dam was a US National Champion female sired by Trump ( YOU KNOW.... that bull whose offspring really stink once they come off the self feeder)

 

[shortyjock89]

Your bull pretty much looks like his grand daddy..but maybe just a little more moderately framed.  I like Trump alot, and we own quite a few granddaughters of him.  Most notably, we own a Sonny cow that is moderately framed (about a 5) and she is really easy keeping.  When she was a show heifer, we stopped feeding her grain and just fed her high quality grass hey through the summer.  She still gained well, and I was even told that might have had just a touch TOO MUCH CONDITION.  She has our best calves, and is going right into the donor pen after her next calf (her third).  She stays in good body condition all year round, even through the hot months with a calf at side.  I'm all for good cattle of any blood line.  If anyone has some extra good cattle just layin around taking up space, bring em on by the farm, we've got a home for em!

 

[Show Heifer]

Yuppie: Funny you should ASSUME what Bolze was talking about.....I spoke with him personally at a Red angus meeting and after he made a few statements about the shorties (some good, some not so good), I ask him about some of the semen and cattle I had.....he didn't say he didn't like Trump or R.D. .....he didn't say that at all.

All breeds have good ones, and bad ones. I hope that I can appreciate ALL of the good ones, and have the brains to avoid the bad ones. Regardless of color, regardless of breed.

In fact, my favorite color of cattle: GREEN!!!!!

 

[knabe]

that bull's profile brings up a confirmation question for me which i don't know too much about.  the thing that really strikes me about the bull is that he seems seems well integrated over his loin rather than broken up into a bunch of different angles.  also, he doesn't break directly behind his shoulders.  would you like to see him level out in his vee area over the middle of his back, or is this a good thing?  it seems to me that for an animal to have "cattiness" as SJ put it, they need some flex over a longer portion of their back (spine), rather than having it concentrated in a smaller area?

 

[DL]

OK GUYS - There are some posts here that are bordering on unpleasant - if I wanted to read someone blanketly slamming a whole breed or a whole line I would go elsewhere - what makes us different is that we police ourselves - kindly remember that or the cyberspace police will be called into action and believer me if you thought J**** or B**** or someone else was wicked wait til you see these cops in purple tube tops riding multicolored Beefpacas - I have no problem with agreeing to disagree - I have a big problem with mean. If we can't be civil we need to watch the horizon for the dust and the thundering of the rampaging Beefpaca cops....(ps for those inclined to translate everything literally this is bizarre humor with a titch of truth)
pss I can't wait to see the admin in purple tube tops

JIT - consider yourself the winner of the JULY Silver Tongue Award....well said...

now lets move on  (dog) (dog) (dog) (dog) (dog) (dog) (follow the darn dog to somewhere else....)