Shorty Folks

[Will]

I remember it also stated he liked his cows to weigh 1200 to 1400 pounds and bulls to weigh from 2000 to 2400 pounds.  I thought to myself through all the change some one probably had it right 150 years ago. 

 

[Duncraggan]

I find it commendable that people are keeping herds pure.

Just like the people who keep seeds in seedbanks for future use, we should all keep old beef genetics so that traits are not lost for future breeders.

Fashions may change, but good cattle always remain good cattle, period!

 

[sjcattleco]

most of you know where I stand on that deal! asterisk free is what we have concentrated on for almost 20 yrs. I have one line that carries the * but it is productive so it stays around.  back in the mid 90's when we got started and had 100 cows that were about 50 50 there was a BIG divide on fleshing ability fertility and frame size so it was not a hard choice to sell off / cull the * cattle and keep the others.

 

[OH Breeder]

This is a causal observation take it for what it is. I have found my asterisk free cattle seem to be easier to maintain than some of the other lines. They don't seem to require the maintenance some do.

 

[oakview]

Here is a photo of Calrossie Good News, raised by the Calrossie herd mentioned earlier.  Good News was herd sire for the noted Saltoun Herd of Scotland and appeared in the pedigree of many imported bulls of the day.  This picture was taken from the 1951 year end issue of Shorthorn World.  Perhaps this is why Mr. McGilvary, breeder of the bull, is happy there are no more like him today.  Check out page 7 of the June 2003 issue of Shorthorn Country.  Rinkhoff Agri. Enterprises of Penn., advertises that they maintain a herd of 100% pure horned Shorthorns.  Don't know if they have any left or not.  Belle Meade Brigadier is pictured, a descendant of another Calrossie bull, Calrossie Prefect. 

 

[Okotoks]

I posted this pedigree on the inbreeding thread. It's interesting because this bull is from the Haumont herd of native shorthorns. This bull is the result of a bull that was a maternal sibling mating being bred back to his dam. In this case this is a very closely related herd but finding animals that are non appendix to introduce to the herd is probably a challenge. Photo is of some Haumont cows that were on facebook yesterday. I think they look great!
x4015461 DNA-N C C CHIEF COMMAND 99
  x4045450 DNA-N PROMISE A CHIEF 01
              x4015467 DNA-N MAID OF PROMISE MLW 22ND
  Sire:x4132285 DNA-N PROMISE A PROMISE '07
              x3966956 PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y COMMANDER IN CHIEF 96
  x4058643 DNA-N MAID OF PROMISE H 201ST
              x4015467 DNA-N MAID OF PROMISE MLW 22ND
PROMISE A PROMISE 2101
              x3540863 DNA-N MEADOWBROOK CHIEFTAIN 9TH
  x3966956 PHA-F TH-F DNA-Y COMMANDER IN CHIEF 96
              x3855794 DNA-N CHERRY BLOSSOM H 97TH
  Dam: x4058643 DNA-N MAID OF PROMISE H 201ST
              x3919744 DNA-N CLARA'S MARSHALL 93
  x4015467 DNA-N MAID OF PROMISE MLW 22ND
              x3872378 DNA-N MAID OF PROMISE MLW 7TH

 

[JTM]

I think that asterisk free Shorthorns are definitely a valuable option. It provides a tighter gene pool that can be used for better hybrid vigor in a crossbreeding program for commercial purposes. I think if I'm looking at several head of cattle similar in type and performance and have an asterisk free option, it would make me feel like the asterisk free has a bit more value than the asterisk. More options for your breeding program.

 

[oakview]

I think it has been said before, but it bears repeating.  If you're including cattle with the commonly used Irish in their pedigree as asterisk free, you're kidding yourself.  I like Irish cattle and have used them since they became available, but their pedigree is blank.  The Deerpark Leader and Deerpark Improver lines have no recorded ancestors other than Foundation or something called Clare Man, whoever or whatever that was.  You would have a hard time proving that Deerpark Leader was more Shorthorn than Cunia.  Rather than debating the asterisk, perhaps a more logical discussion could be held as to whether it really makes any difference after 15/16th status has been reached.

 

[RyanChandler]

I think that asterisk free Shorthorns are definitely a valuable option. It provides a tighter gene pool that can be used for better hybrid vigor in a crossbreeding program for commercial purposes. I think if I'm looking at several head of cattle similar in type and performance and have an asterisk free option, it would make me feel like the asterisk free has a bit more value than the asterisk. More options for your breeding program.

yea, thats gonna be near impossible. Unless of course you're talking Canadian asterick free. 

I think it has been said before, but it bears repeating.  If you're including cattle with the commonly used Irish in their pedigree as asterisk free, you're kidding yourself.  I like Irish cattle and have used them since they became available, but their pedigree is blank.  The Deerpark Leader and Deerpark Improver lines have no recorded ancestors other than Foundation or something called Clare Man, whoever or whatever that was.  You would have a hard time proving that Deerpark Leader was more Shorthorn than Cunia.  Rather than debating the asterisk, perhaps a more logical discussion could be held as to whether it really makes any difference after 15/16th status has been reached.

I agree.  Lots of pure cattle out there that have had the asterisk added only after a fallout with the association- many of the DRC cattle fall into this category.  You just have to look at the pedigree.  Is the asterick'd animal a 7/8 "purebred" that the money hungry assoc 'gave' papers to or are you looking at an animal that has one asterisk'd animal in its entire pedigree- one grade cow 14 generations ago.  To me that is insignificant and I could care less.  IMO 15/16ths is not near enough.  Id push for a minimum of 31/32 on females. 

 

[r.n.reed]

I believe it is at the 127/128ths level that the star drops off.That is good enough for me.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

I'm confuse! 
If some guys think that would be possible take off asterisk status at high level degree - 127th/128th or more, why we are discussing here about asterisks and cattle without it?
Suppose that almost all asterisk cattle on US herd book already reach to this 127/128 level.
Same for irish open blood.
My point, and respect the oposite views, is that. If it is asterisk at any part of your ancestors - IT WILL BE ASTERISK FOREVER!
A big mistake - monetary inference - was insert the irish on non asterisk. As well said so many times here, they are open pedigree and only God, or maybe neither him will know what kind beasts have on Irish blood.
If people are going to accept asterisk free after a high level %, we have no more reason for discuss it again in future.
Also think that is none reason too for discuss why cattle is becoming black or why people keeps club calfs as unprofitable pets, as asterisk matter is also becoming secondary and cattle with/without it will follow for a commom place.

 

[RyanChandler]

When you say 'at any part in their ancestry' are you limiting that to the dates of the Coates herdbook or? 

Is there any science behind the 127/128 or is it an arbitrary number?

 

[r.n.reed]

Arbitrary,although a professor made the decision.

 

[Duncraggan]

Even as an arbitrarily determined value, one must take that anything above 99% is as pure as you are going to get.  At 63/64ths it would still be below 99%!

Remember, even pure gold isn't 100%!

I think that giving an acceptance percentage gives value to the native, asterisk-free producing breeder out there and gives them an added incentive to keep their herds pure.

 

[oakview]

There would be very, very few "native, asterisk free" producers out there.  Any Irish influence eliiminates the cattle from that category.  It would be hard to find many true native, asterisk free females that did not come from the Haumont or similarly bred herds.  As mentioned earlier, there are probably no Scotch Shorthorn females left.  There were a few dual purpose, double registered herds left 30 years ago, mostly in Kansas and Nebraska, but how many of them still exist in their original state?  Hub's Ranch in Kansas would have qualified years ago, but I think I saw where Steve had used some Dividend breeding.  They might not have an asterisk, but certainly would not quality as "native."  There are a few breeders in Minnesota that have accumulated a lot of the old "native" semen, but are needing to use Haumont bred females as their base and get them verified to trace to the Coates Herd Book.  In my opinion, if they did not trace 100% to the Coates Herd Book, they would not qualify as native or pure.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Agree with Oakview, all ancestors need to trace back to Coate's HB, initial books of course as after 80's CHB accepted Maines as well many North American cattle with appendix influx as pure.

But again will tell...a DNA analyses is required for check the exotic breeds genes.

Beleive that breeders evolved on Native selection need to check accuratelly your pedigrees and define what are really pure, no irish of course, and make the selective cutting just now. By other way, this small population will be mix with no native described as Native today.

See that many breeders are against this and wish keep at your world, ok, is a choice...but by other hand, the actual population will vanish soon by unactivity of breeders.

A clamour for this genetics is apperaing, is time to check the criterias and follow with a serious work for future.

 

[justintime]

I have commented on this several times before, but I will say it one more time... that I feel that this appendix/ non appendix debate is total nonsense. If I felt for a brief second that the non appendix side of the registry was indeed pure, I would probably feel differently. I agree with oakview totally in regards to the Irish cattle being considered as pure. They were and are anything but pure Shorthorn genetics. There are lots and lots of documentation of many of these Irish cattle descending from grade stock of unknown origin. But the Irish issue is only a drop in the bucket of questionable genetics. Many people consider the Dover Ranch herd to be purebred status. I have visited the Dover herd a few times, and I remember seeing at least two sons of Ransom G9 being used back in the late 8os or early 90s. I think it is pretty well determined that G9 was a half blood Maine. Enticer was a half blood Maine and both these bulls have been used by the so called purist breeders, simply because they do not have an asterisk on their papers so they must be purebred. What about all the dual and Milking Shorthorn genetics that have been used in the past that have some Illawara and/or Red Holstien in them? I could go on and on.

In the early 70s we purchased 5 Simmental X Angus heifer calves from the first crop of Simmental calves born in North America. We AI bred them for several years and each year they were turned out with our Shorthorn bull to make sure they were bred. Some of these Shorthorn sired calves from these half Simmental cows were pretty good so they were kept and recorded in the Appendix Herdbook of the Canadian Shorthorn Association. In looking back into the pedigrees of some so called Non appendix cattle registered in the closed herdbook, I have found two of our Simmental X Angus cows. It certainly doesn't bother me, but I have often thought that some of the owners of these cattle would probably ship them to market if they actually knew they were in the background of their " pure" Shorthorn herds sires.
I simply shake my head when I see some of the pedigrees that some people will use in their herd, only because the registration paper says they are pure. Total horse feathers in many cases!!

I was one of the first people to import the Irish cattle to North America. When we decided to bring them into Canada, we felt that they should never be included in the closed herd book. We knew they were anything but purebred... or at least a good number of them fell into this catagory. We decided to bring them in to try to develop some Shorthorn bulls that could be acceptable in commerical operations. They offered a few traits that we felt were totally lacking in the breed at that time. Once we had imported Highfield Irish Mist and two Leader 18th heifers, we had many breeders encourage us to lobby the Canadian Shorthorn Association to get them into the registry. We insisted that we would only do this if they placed them into the appendix herd book. This was granted at the CSA Annual Meeting. I still have the book where we listed the semen sold on Irish Mist and I also find it interesting that the first 3 sales were to breeders who are still in business today, and today insist that they can only use non appendix bloodlines in their herds. I will not name them, but these 3 breeders purchased 50 straws, 30 straws and 25 straws respectively. ( As a side note, these first 3 sales were more than enough to pay for purchasing Irish Mist , transporting him to Canada and 2 months in quarentine). One year later, two of these breeders presented a Notice of Motion to the Canadian Shorthorn Annual Meeting, asking for the Irish cattle to be moved from the Appendix herd book to the Closed herd book. My partners and myself, opposed this as we knew this was totally wrong. We decided to fly to the meeting in Vancouver, and we were the only 3 votes opposing the motion. It was at this point in time, I decided that I would use the Shorthorn genetics I found that had merit, regardless of where they came from in the breed. I feel that most of the appendix cattle at least show a closer insight to what genetics are actually in it's genetic make-up.

In my humble opionion, we need to put less emphasis on the appendix/ non appendix issue and accept that they are considered to be Shorthorns by most everyone outside the breed. I have had some Shorthorn breeders tell me that they simply cannot sell an appendix bull to their commercial bull buyers. I sell 25-35 bulls each and every year, and I have yet had any commercial producer not buy a bull because he was appendix. We had three bull buyers this year, that purchased bulls in our sale that had been buying from some well known breeders who insist on non appendix cattle. All three of these buyers said they were losing performance by using these bulls in their herds. Interesting!!The only people I have ever had ask me about the appendix or non appendix status of an animal in the last 25 years have been purebred breeders, and I can only think of this happening on 3 or 4 occasions.
I think we have much bigger issues in this breed that we should be spending out energy and time on. Let people use the genetics they want and let the marketplace decide on whether they are right or wrong.

 

[justintime]

I don't want anyone to think that this is just a Shorthorn issue. There has been dishonest breeding decisions made in almost every breed over the years. Some of these have been caught by breed associations but many have not. The Shorthorn breed was one of the very first to design an appendix herd book so that animals that were percentage Shorthorn blood could be bred back to purebred status. If you look at many breeds, they have used this to their advantage. For example, Charolais, Simmental etc. I just find it interesting that many of the breeders who insist on cattle that are in the closed herd books have conveniently changed the herd book from time to time over the years to allow certain bloodlines into the breed.

As far as the Coates Herdbook being the gospel, according to which we should all live, it is far from being that. The actual Coates herd book contains many breeds in it. When I was in Scotland, I was told stories of breeders getting animals into the Coates herd book by simply showing up with a large bottle of whiskey at the Coates registry office. From what I was told, you could get almost any animal registered by this method, as the registrar controlling the Coates herd book enjoyed to have a few drinks. I have also heard of an American who purchased some cattle in Ireland with no records of pedigree, and the Irish agent getting them registered in the Coates herd book by the same method by taking the registrar of Coates herdbook to the local pub for lunch.
For some reason the Coates herdbook has attained elevated status here in North America, but when you talk with British breeders, they almost joke about it and some have suggested that it is most useful as a historical document.

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

Well....the history ends here!
:'(

 

[justintime]

The past is history and it cannot be changed. In order to see where you are going in the future, you first have to know where you have come from. History is important as we have to understand what took place so we do not make the same mistakes again. A good basic knowledge of the past is important to anyone who considers themselves to be a breeder of breeding stock. Hopefully most people will try to seek improvement from their breeding decisions that will advance the breed as well as your own success as a breeder.  I think if you are a good student of pedigrees, you can sort out some of the animals that are suspect heritage. There are some that you may find that are questionable and you cannot prove anything after the fact. I prefer to accept the past for what it is, and move on and try to design better critters with the genetics available in the present. I use lots of past and present genetics in my herd, especially in my ET program. Older genetics are used if I think they have merit, just like genetics from today. I see some breeders using anything old that they can find, and IMO, some of these genetics should be left in the past. But fortunately, any breeder should have the freedom to select and breed with any genetics they want to use. I just feel that some of the animals from the past were the reason this breed fell out of favor because of poor carcass and various other physical traits. We really shouldn't need to go back there.... but if you want to go there, by all means have at it.