Show steer numbers (poll)

[kfacres]

you know, as I've thought about it more in the last 10  min-- i don't remember 4h having the word "WINNING" in it.  I always thought it should for head, heart, hands, health?  I guess maybe we should change it to 4W- winning, whining, weinys, and wimps.

When I talked above about having a small, less than rich county- that doesn't mean the quality is bad.  This county has been historically one of the elite livestock judging counties in Illinois. 

The very first team our coach (taught by Roger Carr) coached that won the IL State contest, was about 2 years after he got out of the University.  That team had Craig Beckmier (and his brother) on it- and some others- for those of you that know Craig= he's as elite of a national show judge their is- and is the judging coach at Lincoln Land CC. 

4 years later my coach had a team that again won the IL State contest which had Aaron Williams, who while at UofI I believe was coaching a national champion 4H team from Louisville, and now has an ag program that's got as good of a FFA team in the state.  That team also had Ryan Orrick on it- a KState grad, former judging coach at Fort Scott (I think), SIU, and now the coach for Lake Land.

4 years after that, that coach's team again won the IL State contest- that was my year, and along with myself- we had some others that competed at the college level. 

4 years after that- that coach again coached a state champion team, which had his son on it.  That was 2 or 3 years ago.  I think all in all, that coach has had over 30 kids go on to compete at the college level on judging teams in his 16 years of coaching at the 4H level- that's over 2 kids a year going to college, full ride-- to judge livestock. 

you know, livestock judging teams like that, with that history-- don't have kids who raise average to medicore animals on them.

PS- now that wiseguy posted, while I was typing this:  He knows that 2nd team that contained Aaron and Ryan quite well.. he was on that JuCo team with them- and if I'm not mistaken-- co coached the team with Aaron while attending UofI with them...  Thanks for joining Wes!

 

[DLD]

I don't know what county you're in DLD, but up here in Grant County, Our county premium sale has 20 slots for steers, limit 1 per child. The most that has been eligible since I've been around has been 12, so if you show up with ANY halter-broke steer that weighs 1000 pounds, it will make it in. There was a kid that showed up with a calf that they pulled off wheat around Christmas, that had the frame size of a Holstien. They fed him hard and he barely made the weight limit, thus automatically getting him in the sale. He led this thing in the ring dirty and unclipped, no show halter, stood last in his class, and the kid went home that night. Showed up to the sale in time to lead him in the ring, and collect his $600.00, and go back home.

I personally would like to see us pull the reins back on our sale slots to somewhere around 85% of eligible kids/animals, but the hard part is trying to keep the dollar amount up at that same level with fewer animals. It builds competition between these kids, and motivates them. Remember when it used to be a big deal to make it in the premium sale?

We're in Grady county.  We've had the same 27 slots for as long as I can remember, and I do recall when it was a big deal to make it.  There have been years we've been as low as 21. And we sometimes have some that are only there to collect the premium money, too - these are what some are trying to eliminate.  Like you, I'd like to see a percentage rather than a set number - I really don't think it would hurt overall numbers, but in any case, it would at least be in tune with number of steers shown.

Our female shows suffer because many of us that pretty well know we're going to get market animals in the sale choose not to bring heifers  because we dont want to block those exhibitors that only show females from having a chance to be listed (only champions are listed, if the champion exhibitor has a market animal in the sale, no one is moved up to replace them).  I think we'd increase numbers and competitiveness throughout the whole show by selling 5 heifers, 5 ewes, 5 -10 gilts and 2 does and taking those numbers away from the market animals in their respective species, but the show comitee won't hear of it.  We've also tried to put together some money and prizes for the heifer show, but again the show comitee tells us the only way they'll allow it is if we do the same for the other species.  Oh yeah, and we have a dairy heifer show, and they are also eligible to be listed too - just one more kink in changing things.

 

[pjkjr4]

KF- I completely understand your point. There are kids everywhere that do more with less every year at these shows. Most of the time, they fall short. The thing of it is though, premium sales are not about which kid deserves it most. It's about which animals deserve it most. But, it's not always the "prissy girl" (as you say) that takes the purple. There's lots of kids/animals that fall somewhere in between (personally, that's where I feel my kids, and about 90% of the others fall....down here anyway) the "prissy girl", and the kid that brings what they have.

I am a board member of our county fair as well as our county spring livestock show. We have put in the rules that no fitters are allowed. Only the child, family member, ag teacher, and Extension Agent are allowed to work on the cattle while on the premises. Also, no glues, paints, etc. are allowed on animals. Shaving cream and pink oil are as far as we let them go. With these rules, you can tell who is serious about their project and who's not. That's why I say a percentage of animals in the premium sale is good, and that's one of the reasons that before we buy our calves each spring, my whole family sits down to try and make some REALISTIC goals of what we want to accomplish in the next year. With 1 show left (OYE) next week for this year, both my kids have already fallen short of the goals we set. But you know what, they're already more hungry to get after it for next year. That kind of attitude can rub off pretty easily to everyone around them, including their dad.

Sorry for the rambling.

 

[Will]

I am involved in two seperate counties that do things very differantly.  One county sells 24 steer and 20 heifers or 50% then 75% of goats, sheep, and hogs.  This county used to have 60 steers, 60 heifers 400 hogs and 100 sheep.  Last week they had they had 15 heifers and 20 steers.  The top end was better but the bottom was just as bad as ever.  I think by limiting the numbers in cattle more than you do in other species it really hurts the middle group.  The kids that work hard but get discouraged and go get a hog. 

The other county lets every kid sell one animal it does not matter if it is a goat sheep heifer or steer.  The steer numbers has greatly reduced but the heifer numbers have stayed strong or risen.  Other species have stayed steady.  They also do a county bred show that is very competitve and gives the local kids a chance to be successful with a steer or heifer that wasmost likely pulled out of mom and dads field.  A matter a fact we have a local breeder that show nationally tthat could win the county show every year but chooses not to show in that division and I have always respected him for that. 

 

[chambero]

We have a very small steer show at our county - I think this year we had 13 steers (and 4 of them belonged to my boys).  You can show multiple calves or species of market animals, but you can only sell one animal.

The number of steers in our sale is based on a minimum (I think the number is 10) that sell. If that minimum number is reached, its based on a % - maybe 80%. 

If only 10 kids want to sell a steer, they all make it.  If 11 kids want to sell, one wouldn't make it.

Pig, sheep, and goat people always gripe that we sell too many steers because of that minimum.  My argument is that not making the sale with one of those species is not nearly as traumatic financially as not making it with a steer.  Our county sale prices are pretty low (its a premium sale) - usually something just under $1000.  It doesn't even cover the feed bill on a steer.  Not everyone can afford that loss.

 

[OKshorthorn]

We are in Kingfisher County and i'm a super for the fair. When I was showing only steers could get in the premium auction, and we had 30-40 steers every year. A few years back they changed it where heifers can also get in the premium auction which has destroyed the steer show. We had 3 steers at the fair a few weeks ago, 3!!! It's just a premium auction, so it wouldn't make sense to hold a steer back from the show if you had one, we just didn't have any this year. Now there were 45 heifers, and the quality was better than I ever remember it being, but I hate that the steer show has gone to what it is.

 

[GONEWEST]

One family comes to mind that I'll use as an example.

Three kids- they raise average cattle- the parent's are 4H leaders- some of the best in the county- but they are not interested in winning shows and spending big money.  The kids each started their 'herd' with bottle calves- and went from there.  The family doesn't feed much grain- if any- and the cattle aren't really the most ideal genetically I would guess either.  Quite frankly they suck-- but each of the kids is as hard of working youngster I have ever seen- they do it ALL, including taking care of ALL the animals at home.  These are kids that do not mind standing last place in their class- just so they can still sell that ONE animal a year for a college fund.  I do not think the family has the funds to send all three kids to college- heck I bet they couldn't pay for one kid to go to school- each kid gets a job at 16 to pay for gas- and drives hammy down vehicles.  The oldest kid- was about 3 years younger than I was- and I considered him a friend- so we talked.  I asked him once why he didn't feed his steer better- he said we don't believe in feeding much grain- and sell mostly based off a grass fed buyer's market- cool I said.  These are kids that also bring 5-10 breeding beef females to show each year at the fair- they are passionate about what they do- but are not into raising show steers like everyone on here thinks rules.  They come to the fair to have a good time, socialize, get some premium money- and get some recognition once in a while.  They raise PROFITABLE cattle- and show them for the fun of it.

I know for a fact that if that set of kids were to get sifted from the sale- they wouldn't show a market steer again, and I bet they wouldn't ever show another beef animal again.  There would be no incentive for them to come to the fair with cattle- they don't depend on the fair to keep their cattle operation afloat- the depend on that check to get enough money to pay for school.  they'd buy a hog and it wouldn't be no 'club pig'.

So, I guess what I'm saying is: those of you who live in rich, large counties- don't truly understand what all goes on out there in 4H and junior shows across the states.  Not every kid's goal is to stand in 1st hole at the end of the day--- and you know what-- in most cases I bet those kids that don't stand in 1st hole- learn more life skills- learn the way to make a profit- manage money- APPRECIATE money- and do something with their lives: than the rich kids who show up show day and take that highly fitted steer by the lead strap-- and walk in to win the banner.  In all honesty- these kids come from a true farming background- and I bet on most years their animal sells for as much or more as any other animal on that day.  The buyer's don't care who wins or loses- they come to the sale to support the families that support their business and make a donation to kids that care enough about partaking in project- showing that project off- and are looking to invest in the future.

kf- Sorry, but I don't personally buy that reply. Our politically correct world and our "I want it now attitude" stinks. That's why my family sets out reasonable goals at the beginning of the year. We don't worry ourselves with what everybody else is doing. Kids also need to learn that this is not a fair world. By the way, we sell 67 animals at our county show every year. A particular year, I can't remember which, my daughter was 1 of only 6 kids that didn't make the premium sale. She worked as hard if not harder than anybody else that year, but dusted herself off, and has fought it ever since.

Sidenote- There is a family from our county that will GIVE a weaned heifer away every year, and our local co-op donates 1 ton of feed for it. It's an application, and 2 interview process. The last 2 years, 1 kid each year applied for that, and this year they didn't have a single applicant. So where I live, your reply is not a valid excuse to me.

I don't know what county you're in DLD, but up here in Grant County, Our county premium sale has 20 slots for steers, limit 1 per child. The most that has been eligible since I've been around has been 12, so if you show up with ANY halter-broke steer that weighs 1000 pounds, it will make it in. There was a kid that showed up with a calf that they pulled off wheat around Christmas, that had the frame size of a Holstien. They fed him hard and he barely made the weight limit, thus automatically getting him in the sale. He led this thing in the ring dirty and unclipped, no show halter, stood last in his class, and the kid went home that night. Showed up to the sale in time to lead him in the ring, and collect his $600.00, and go back home.

I personally would like to see us pull the reins back on our sale slots to somewhere around 85% of eligible kids/animals, but the hard part is trying to keep the dollar amount up at that same level with fewer animals. It builds competition between these kids, and motivates them. Remember when it used to be a big deal to make it in the premium sale?

and what happens to the kid that can't afford a high dollar steer- but does more work and deserves the sale more so than the prissy girl who won champion but just showed up show day to take the halter?  What inspriration does that show?

What is a "hammy down" vehicle?

 

[In the Know]

you know, as I've thought about it more in the last 10  min-- i don't remember 4h having the word "WINNING" in it.  I always thought it should for head, heart, hands, health?  I guess maybe we should change it to 4W- winning, whining, weinys, and wimps.

When I talked above about having a small, less than rich county- that doesn't mean the quality is bad.  This county has been historically one of the elite livestock judging counties in Illinois. 

The very first team our coach (taught by Roger Carr) coached that won the IL State contest, was about 2 years after he got out of the University.  That team had Craig Beckmier (and his brother) on it- and some others- for those of you that know Craig= he's as elite of a national show judge their is- and is the judging coach at Lincoln Land CC. 

4 years later my coach had a team that again won the IL State contest which had Aaron Williams, who while at UofI I believe was coaching a national champion 4H team from Louisville, and now has an ag program that's got as good of a FFA team in the state.  That team also had Ryan Orrick on it- a KState grad, former judging coach at Fort Scott (I think), SIU, and now the coach for Lake Land.

4 years after that, that coach's team again won the IL State contest- that was my year, and along with myself- we had some others that competed at the college level. 

4 years after that- that coach again coached a state champion team, which had his son on it.  That was 2 or 3 years ago.  I think all in all, that coach has had over 30 kids go on to compete at the college level on judging teams in his 16 years of coaching at the 4H level- that's over 2 kids a year going to college, full ride-- to judge livestock. 

you know, livestock judging teams like that, with that history-- don't have kids who raise average to medicore animals on them.

PS- now that wiseguy posted, while I was typing this:  He knows that 2nd team that contained Aaron and Ryan quite well.. he was on that JuCo team with them- and if I'm not mistaken-- co coached the team with Aaron while attending UofI with them...  Thanks for joining Wes!

Sorry every body I know this is a bit off topic, but I just gotta call this one out...

Jody,

I am confused by this ^ post. Although I am not a geography major. The Beckmier's are from and have always been from Christian Co. Illinois, the coaches son you are referring to judges in Marion Co. Illinois, and Orrick and Williams Judged in Jefferson Co. Illinois. So basically I am not sure which County in Illinois you are referring to. Could you please clarify?

 

[kfacres]

all 3-- you obviously are not 'in the know'-- as you didn't know that.  I was in 4h member in two of those- and had the same coach in all 3. 

 

[In the Know]

When I talked above about having a small, less than rich county- that doesn't mean the quality is bad.  This county has been historically one of the elite livestock judging counties in Illinois. 

all 3-- you obviously are not 'in the know'-- as you didn't know that.  I was in 4h member in two of those- and had the same coach in all 3. 

Which one?

 

[kfacres]

When I talked above about having a small, less than rich county- that doesn't mean the quality is bad.  This county has been historically one of the elite livestock judging counties in Illinois. 

all 3-- you obviously are not 'in the know'-- as you didn't know that.  I was in 4h member in two of those- and had the same coach in all 3. 

Which one?

I thought you knew, you are 'in the know'.

which county?  I started in Jeff co- with aaron and ryan and josh--- then when our coached moved counties due to his kids getting old enough- our team also moved. 

 

[In the Know]

Jody,
As a matter of fact I am 'In the know' I know you were on both teams. There were also some kids from Clinton Co. on those teams too, and quite frankly I could careless. I was just questioning which one of those is the "smaller less rich county." Personally I actually kind of agree with you on the whole some of the hardest working kids don't get the credit they deserve. However, you saying things like changing the name of 4-H to 4-W is just dumb, As much of a 4-H judging star as you must have been (or at least Claim to be on here), you should really appreciate the great things the organization offers, as former member of 4-H I feel like that was a slap in the face. Now of course you probably think I am being thin skinned and whinny, but I don't care. I have had the privilege to judge some shows in several states in the Midwest, I have struggled with the fact that some of the animals I have put down in class don't make the sale, and I know some of the kids that are there are very hard workers, BUT the bottom line is it's a stock show, the good ones go up and the not so good ones go down. In little league baseball the kid with the lowest batting average doesn't make the all-star team either, even if he/she works the hardest, they get the sportsmanship award.

Sorry for the rant ever one else.

Back on topic, last summer I judged 5 County fairs, and of those 2 were seeing a slight increase in the numbers they had weighed in for the premium sales, 2 were seeing a slight decrease and one said they had the exact same numbers. This year - none of them (this year) had a placing requirement to get into the sale, however the Jr.'s could only sell one specie. I talked with 3 of the superintendents after the fair they said they were very pleased with the average prices at the Jr. Auction's, one also told me they had a record setting sale.

 

[DLD]

Not sure about any records, but our sale was certainly noticeably better this year than it has been in several years.  In a way it makes me wonder why they would decide now to think about changing anything, but I think the reasoning is that since the rewards are getting richer, those really lower end animals in the sale are seeming even less deserving. 

It looks like maybe this year my kids will break even on their steers.  What they brought through the ring, with add on's from the county and a couple hundred each from our local show, we'll come real close to paying the feed bill.  One steer was home raised - we'll eat that one, the other cost $1750 and should bring right in that neighborhood if fat cattle don't crash in the next two weeks.  That's assuming neither makes the sale at OYE - could happen, but I'm not counting chickens before they hatch.  Most years we lose money on this age calf - this year the market's in our favor, though the feed bill isn't, and we're fortunate to have a decent pair of steers for the money we spent.  It looks like $2000 might be the minimum one could expect to pay for a show quality one this spring... 

Losing a little money on my kids project doesn't bother me, 'cause we love doing it.  But what about those people that don't have it as deep in their veins as we do?  How long are they willing to lose money year after year?  Even I have to wonder about the sanity of it when I know I could go buy a couple of goats that could be competitive anywhere we want go and actually come out ahead year after year...

As far as hard working kids with lower quality animals goes, here are my thoughts;  In typical years past a few steers miss the sale.  Most of the time our judges are ag teachers or extension agents who have plenty of experience with these sales from both sides - they find the one's that've been fed right and had some time and effort spent on them, and they get those in the sale.  College guys invariably beat some of those with one that's "not quite there yet" or "has the misfortune to have a poorer quality haircoat" but happens to fit whatever tangent of size, shape or color they happen to be into that day.  I'll take the ag teacher/CEA any day.

 

[SWMO]

Our steer numbers are falling off however, some of this is due to an exhibitor only weighing in one steer to show rather than weighing in three or four and showing two.  The economics of owning and showing several steers is becoming harder.  The steers cost more and if you are raising them they bring so much at the sale barn that it is hard to want to keep more than the minimum to show.

Our county has struggled over the past several years to come up with a "fair" number of each species to sell in our premium sale.  Buyers are becoming harder and harder to come by in this area as we become more urban and less rural in thinking.  The smaller market species are growing.  Just my thoughts but it seems to be because of limited time, space and money.  Steers are a much greater commitment for a family than say a goat or a hog is.  Just due to the shear size of the animal, the amount of feed it takes to get it finished and the extra time that a steer is in the barn as opposed to the smaller species.

We are very fortunate to have a extremely strong female show at our county fair.  A rule that our county has maintained over the years is that you have to show a breeding animal in order to show a market animal.  I like this rule.  You don't have kids just showing a market animal in order to generate some cash.  They are also, hopefully, growing the beginning of their breeding program and learning something about the production side of the equation.  These are many exhibitors that choose to only show in the female and bull show not wanting to devote the time and space to a market animal on a given year.  Our female show is very competitive and is taken very seriously by all involved.  And I feel that we have one of the most competitive heifer shows in our area.

It breaks my heart when a exhibitor that has worked hard all year does not make the sale.  My own kids have not made the sale in the past.  However, it is a part of our county rules and and part of lessons that we all must learn in life.  My kids have learned more from the times that they didn't win than in the times than they did win.

 

[shortii]

I didnt read all of the posts so I might be saying the same thing someone else has. At my county fair when I showed there were about five or six families that had the higher end steers, but now that we have aged out it seems that steer numbers have fallen and hogs and sheep have as well. Dairy has gone up though. As for the sale, we sold small animals on a separate day from large animals. For the large animal sale sheep, hogs and steers sold and every year the order of what species sold first would rotate. As for buyers leaving the sale or not spending money on other species, I found my own buyers. Every year I would make a brochure that covered what I had done through out the year with my steer,  which included show placings and everyday care. Also at my county fair you are allowed to sell three pens of livestock which was categorized as 1 steer =1 pen, 2 sheep =1 pen, 2 hogs =1 pen.

 

[farmin female]

This is a timely topic since we discussed this at our last fair board meeting.  We live in a county where the livestock sale is supported quite well.  We sell somewhere around 130 total animals.  We sell 25 steers, and something like 40 head of pigs, 40 lambs and 15 goats.  We also sell the grand champion pen of turkeys, rabbits and fryers.  We discussed pulling back the numbers this year, but our sale was up over the previous year so things stayed the same.  Our county has sold the 25 steers for as long as I can remember regardless of the number of animals entered.  I was told that one year, some years back, we only had 26 steers in the show and they sold 25 in the sale.  Looks like we're kinda holding steady at about 45 head currently.  Because we have good support, even if you don't make the sale with your steer, we have lots of buyers that will pay decent prices for your "non-sale" animal.  For the past couple of years, most kids will ask around $2/lb on the foot for their steers and they sell.  We are one of the rare counties that will let each kid sell 2 animals.  And, kids can enter and show as many animals as they want.  That decision is based on the idea if you can afford to buy and feed them, you can show them. 

As for the actual show, we have a full hair show.  But, we don't allow for any fitters.  Only family, leaders and other 4-H and FFA kids.  You can use all the paints, sprays and adhesives, but no dyeing is allowed.  We also have rules in place that animals must be clean and groomed and, of course, disease free.  Calves must be tame or they will be excused from the fairgrounds becasue of safety issues.  Because we have an active sale, we get the full spectrum of calves from ranch raised to the high dollar puff balls.  At the end of the day, the judge gets to decide and you never know who will win. 

Good topic for getting an overview of how things go from around the country.   

 

[mick rems]

im in WI our steer show is about the same if not a couple more numbers. lose some older members and we gain some younger members. the quality of the animals has improved immensely on both the breeding and market level in the beef barn. we have 4 divisions for market beef including beef steers and market heifers along with dairy steers, as its a mostly dairy county, and dairy beef cross. we sell a percentage of elligible animals of the 3 species now 2 yrs ago it was no matter wat 18 beef sold 23 lambs and 43 hogs. prices are fairly decent in the sale, this past yr i dont think any beef animal brought under 2 bucks a pound.
as far as the show itself its a fit show, but only jr members and parents can fit or basically work with the animal during the week of fair. 4h leaders aren't even supposed to fit animals. you can have a mentor pro fitter telling you how to do something but they can't actually just do it themselves. when i started showing the breed show usually only had like 5 animals in it now weve got probably 20 animals in the breedstock show. several families have really improved their breeding and most of the breeding animals being shown were born in the county and most were born on that persons farm. when i started our county wasn't represented at any other shows except for maybe one farm at a spring show and then at world beef expo. now weve got several families showing state fair and other shows. we now have a livestock judging team and a meats judging team. the sr team went to states for livestock the first yr and the jr team went to states the second yr of having the team
even if our steer numbers have gone down slightly its safe to say that the show is way more competitive. and the beef barn is way more full of cattle than it was wen i started showing 6 yrs ago.

 

[vc]

Steer numbers have been on a downward move the last couple of years, due to 2 things cost and kids get older and not ass many replacing them as they go. At our fair you can sell one animal (must be a blue ribbon animal) unless you have more than one champion (all division champions sell 2 from 4-H, 2 from FFA), I think they had 86 head of steers (& market heifers) last year and 58 sold, some kids had 2 steers, 5 steers received red ribbons so they did not sell, 2 or 3 did not make weight and one was sent home for behavior issues. Average price was probably 2.50 a pound with the lowest going for 1.80 and the champions selling for 10.00.
Hogs have stayed the same or bumped up a little, goats and sheep the same. They run the hogs first, usually around 200 head starts at 10a.m. The goats, lambs, veal (might have been 6 or 8 of those) with the champion chickens, rabbits and turkeys mixed in there are sold, beef are sold last usually ending around 5 or 6 in the evening. It really does not seem to matter on the numbers of animals, it seems to end around the same time every year.

More kids are choosing the hogs, goats and lambs it seems, I think it is for several reasons, they cost less to raise, you have less time invested, and if you lose money you lose less.

Our fair is in July most kids have their steers by November. They will have their animal for 220 to 270 days. If you average 1 hour a day with the animal (most kids that work with them will double that) so that is an average of 220 hours of work, 440 or more for some, if you average what most kids make in your area, ours would probably be $500, so that works out to about $2.25 an hour. 2 hours a day and you will make $1.125. The reward is only in the education of the project and the love for competition; it is not for the money. What do the kids in your area average, what does the hourly rate workout to be for them.