Show Steers or Intricate/Expensive/Picky Eaters...Response to "Dont Get Mad"

[Bawndoh]

I find this forum to be VERY informative, with a great set of people, some great cattle, and smart minds.  I want to discuss the "show steer" world.  I feel that a show steer, should look good....wide based, heavily muscled, wide topped, and tight throated....after all, they are going to a show, and not competing in a carcass competition!  But why cant they eat the ration of a normal feedlot steer?  I personally see a lot of feedlot steers that I think are better than show calves, and live a much simpler lifestyle.  I wonder about some of the people who spend all kinds of money on their show calf diets.  I see a lot of feed companies designing all kinds of rations and potions and shmoshions...but not a lot of these steers can live off a diet of grass hay and barley/corn.  I will use barley as an example..as we almost never feed corn where I am from.  What kind of "FEEDER STEERS" are people showing, that could not ever actually be classified as a feeder steer.  These expensive, NWSS champions sit in a dark cooler all day, and are practically tubed, because they have no actual appetite, because it has been bred out of them, because it is more important that they look pretty...!  I am not throwing ALL show calves into this category, but I am throwing a lot of them in there.  In Canada, we seem to have very few feed companies...the ones we have, mix a ration of rolled barley, corn, and some vitimans and minerals.  There are no fillers that make them more muscled up-ers, grow more hair-ers, fakely increase their appetite-ers, gain unrealistic amounts of weight-ers!  Yet I have seen some pretty awesome beef cattle up here, that could blow a lot of people's minds.  I just find it frustrating, that these great  "State Fair/National Winning" steers, are seen by the general public as "the best feeder cattle in America", yet they have diets that are more intricate than the damn Queen!! 
Quite simply, what is everyones opinion on this, and why cant we just steers that are pretty, yet realistic?  The show steer world is seriously more rediculous and fake than the Miss America pagent. 

 

[worthabit]

While I agree with your opinion of show steers not being actual "feeder steers", I would doubt that the potions and shenannigans used in Canada are much different from the states. I ahve heard of plenty of hair growth promoters, surgeries and the like being used and performed. We stopped showing steers about 10 years ago because of the polotics of the whole thing and the purebred business seems to be getting that way as well which really bothers me as here in the Maritimes the beef industry is more of a hobby than a lucrative business.

Seeing as you brought up the differences between the two countries, one of the other posts talked about the "americanized angus and the narrow-butted angus. I have noticed a difference between the Canadian and American lines. I think we have larger, growthier and definately thicker cattle here, probably more like the Irish and Scottish cattle that were pictured in the "interesting angus bull" post.

Sorry for getting off topic.

 

[simtal]

I'm not that all these supplements do much.  Why people use these feeds is because people have lost the art of feeding cattle.  It's already premixed, bagged, and promoted by a big name.  Sounds alot like breakfast cereal doesn't it?  The contradiction is that show steers represent real world beef production.  Obviously, they don't.  But the only way to change the industry is to have judges start picking more "realistic" kinds.  Just like Don Good did in 1969 (year?) with conoco, judges today can do the same thing.  Maybe at fort worth or KC.  Thats what could start a new trend.  However, this could be dangerous.  When you start changing the establishment, people look to run you down.  It would take a big name (heck several big names) to use one at amajor that is a completely different kind and breeding (ie something other than heatwave). 

 

[doubled]

Oh my Im not touching this one with a ten foot pole - hows that for nice (lol)

 

[Bawndoh]

Oh my Im not touching this one with a ten foot pole - hows that for nice (lol)

Ha Ha...do it.  I just want to know.  I may be missing some things in my statement.  I give you permission to be "honest".  Better yet, send me a PM if you want. 

 

[chambero]

I've never seen a show steer that won't eat turn out.  How has appetite been bred out of them?  Half the benefit of a cooler is to keep them eating during the heat of the summer when you are pushing them harder than any feedlot does that time of year.

There are cattle that won't eat in a feedlot just like they are in a show barn.  It's not like every single animal hangs a perfect carcass there either.

A whole lot of cattle (and most in Texas) are raised in areas that don't have a lot of row crop agriculture to produce their own feedstuffs.  The common commercial cattleman doesn't have access to small feedmills to get their own feed mixed.  Like everything else, the whole feed industry has become centralized.  I don't see what is wrong with someone buying bagged feed?

May be a poor analogy, but why do all athletes take supplements (the legal kind that are prevalent in every high school program on up).  For that matter, why do grandmas take glucosamine, extra vitamins, etc.  Some people think they work, some don't.  At best, they can make small differences in a calf that make the difference between first and second in a tough show.

I've always thought the left over show steers that we wound up eating were way better tasting than what you get at the grocery store.  I don't think we feed inferior feeds, just ones that are too expensive for a feedlot to use on a large basis.

 

[Dusty]

Feeding and daily care is something that has to be micromanaged if you wanna run at the top.  Every animal has different needs that need to be adressed at feeding time.  And, another thing that needs mentioned, when it comes to winning the big shows the averge man doesn't stand a chance.  A kid could start out with the best steer and do everything right, and you still won't win.....

 

[renegade]

A whole lot of cattle (and most in Texas) are raised in areas that don't have a lot of row crop agriculture to produce their own feedstuffs.  The common commercial cattleman doesn't have access to small feedmills to get their own feed mixed.  Like everything else, the whole feed industry has become centralized.  I don't see what is wrong with someone buying bagged feed?

Heck I live in Idaho and I can drive 30 miles in any direction and find anything from hops, soybean, corn, wheat, oats, etc and lots of it and I still have a VERY hard time finding anyone to mix feed.  That what I was doing today and there are only two close enough to make it possible and they only do it once and a while - mainly for there store and they bag it as their own brand

 

[inthebarnagain]

We would have to drive hours to find a feed mill to mix what we wanted.  If we didn't have a grinder of our own we would have to buy bagged feed too.  And the show animals would probably get show feed.  On the off hand we go way back to the basics when we grind.  We have a one row corn picker and feed ear corn instead of shelled corn.

 

[CAB]

  To me it's pretty simple. Most PPL don't understand beef nutrition and make it way!!!! too complicated.They then in turn are easy targets for the professional "salesmen" to come in and tell you what you should be doing and end up selling you a bag of snake oil. As far as slow growth, some show cattle are fed to grow slow, ie. they can hit more jack pot shows. The logic is that they will be big enough someday. JMO.

 

[mooch]

It is a hobby . People like to spend money on their hobbys.If you have any concept of feeding cattle at all you could design your own ration.I do. It is all about getting all the genetic potential out of a certain calf.The feed companies understand this or their customers and market to them.You might be suprised at what alot of those steers would really gain if they weren't held or emptied before their show weights.

 

[SouthWest]

I have finished show steers on feed yard rations for years.  One just needs to know to manage the right feeds.  Starter, grower, finisher.  One needs to know when to shift gears and how.  Just like driiving a top fuel dragster.  I think everyone is confused on the feeds.  I work with a beef nutritionist.  If you look not at the feeds but the feed analysis, you would be suprised how the are almost identical (Protiens, Fat, NE, etc).  The feedyard feed will be about 30% the cost of bag feed.  The feed yard feed has to be kept fresh.  It will turn bad in 2-3 days.  It cannot be stored.  The cattle will refuse it.  As for the taste, there is sometimes a difference.  I know a packer that refuses to buy show cattle.  The just don't grade and yield.  Also the show ring has lost its parellel to industry standards.  Their cutability is inferior to industry cattle.  Some show cattle are not fed enough grain in terms of pounds and time.  A feedyard rule of thumb is 120 minimum on feed, 145 day in order to yield, 160 days in order to grade, and no more that 180 or push over finish.  Some fairs do not have a ownership rule with those amount of days.  Many just require 120 day ownership.  That is just barely turns the cover white.  Feedyard also have the assistance from professionals (vet and nutritionist) that showmen don't.  But as to feeding feed yard ration under feedyard standards, I have and still do it.  Part of my nature that I refuse to give up.  I just buy the fancy genetics and apply industry standards.  Ask my packer.

 

[knabe]

Half the benefit of a cooler is to keep them eating during the heat of the summer when you are pushing them harder than any feedlot does that time of year.

this is the logic of giving waygu cattle beer to create kobe beef in japan.

 

[6M Ranch]

Just do some research.  Go the university websites.  We spend millions of dollars for them to figure out the best feeds, take advantage of it.  Also, most show feed manufacturers provide feed analysis on their feeds.  Compare theirs to yours, look at the universities and adjust accordingly.  We're not splitting the atom, cattle need certain levels of protein, fat, nutrients, etc. at all parts of their lives.  Just give them what they need, and tweak according to your conditions.

 

[chambero]

I know a packer that refuses to buy show cattle.  The just don't grade and yield.  Also the show ring has lost its parellel to industry standards.  Their cutability is inferior to industry cattle.  Some show cattle are not fed enough grain in terms of pounds and time.  A feedyard rule of thumb is 120 minimum on feed, 145 day in order to yield, 160 days in order to grade, and no more that 180 or push over finish.  Some fairs do not have a ownership rule with those amount of days.  Many just require 120 day ownership. 

Not trying to be argumentative (which I guess means I am kind of), but what data do you or anyone else base those claims (and they come from lots of people) on?  These claims are about to find their way to the top of my irritation list on these message boards.  I've never seen a single bit of evidence that show steers don't hang carcasses as good as the industry standard.  In fact, every bit of evidence I've ever seen in the form of carcass contest results (which we have down here from Houston and lots of county shows) indicates steers have superior carcasses.

Most of our steer calves we raise wind up at a feedlot.  We never have a trouble finding a buyer to take them in truckload lots straight from the pasture.  And they always have very superior grade and yield. 

See the link below I've posted on here several times before.  The Grand Steer was a Heat Wave.  Probably most of the black exotic calves on this list are either out of him or one of his relatives. 

http://www.hlsr.com/ag/ls/downloads/2008SteersCarcass.pdf

Exhibitors at our major shows have the option of selling non-placing steers at "floor" price.  Your talking probably several hundred to a thousand or better animals that are sold straight to packers.  And they never have trouble getting bidders for the floor and prices are premium "floor" prices.  These guys aren't doing that for charity.

 

[Bawndoh]

I am not talking about rolling, grinding and doing whatever to certain feeds.  That is normal, that is what feedlots do too.  Im not talking about adding all kinds of vitamins and molasses either.  That is normal.  I am saying, there have been quite a few people on here who have complained about their calves having a poor appetite, or no hair, or not enough muscling.  Instead of suggesting to get a better breeding program...people are suggesting they go to Sullivans, and order up some "Shag, Appetite Express, Oxy Explosion, or Natural Stride".  The thing is...why do these calves need help with their appetites, and strides in the first place.  I know show cattle can be tied up for long periods of time...but really...is it bad enough that you have to push pharmeseutical (sp) crap onto them??  I know I am going to hear from some that these feed addatives are just "horomones and minerals", but why cant the cattle that are needing them just get sent to the sale barn, and not tended to like a newborn child?  Cattlle are supposed to be eaters...they are born, they live to eat, and they get slaughtered for beef.  Pretty simple I thought, but I guess "raising cattle has to be harder than that".   I understand that it gets hot in Florida and Texas, and that you feel you need a rug on your calf to compete with others.  Its sad that all the southern areas cant agree to just show their cattle as is.  All slick shear...or natural coated.  I just feel like the industry is not actually selecting for healthier, more realistic, and actually productive cattle.  It is getting as bad as the human race.  The minute we have a little problem, were running to the medicine cabinet.  Why not just pick up a darn carrot and some spinach for supper every once in a while, instead of a Wendys Double Bacon Cheeseburger??

 

[kids n chaos]

Bawndoh I think maybe you are looking at this the wrong way.  Someone mentioned before that this is a hobby - I'll even go farther and say it is a project.  If my kids' steer won't eat it is an education process to the kid to find out why and what to do to fix it and what to do better next time.  Will we buy a calf with the same breeding again, maybe not, but in the meantime we aren't going to give up because the calf is a picky eater.  This project has effects on other parts of their lives down the road.  If every picky show steer went to the sale barn and they started all over would they be more apt to give up on the next project too and just start over.  At our house you pick a calf to begin with and you see it through to the end point - through the rough hair, through the picky eating etc.  As far as mixing your own feed or buying bagged feed - we use the bag feed as a base in some cases and add to it if needed - other calves it serves as a complete ration.  Sometimes I think we forget that most steer projects are for the juniors - they need to be learning while they are doing.

 

[SouthWest]

I agree with you Chambero about 10%.  I don't need to see the carcass data from a major show.  I see carcass data on about 2000 head a week.  On a major people go an extra mile to get top quality carcass.  They do it by buying quality cattle and then they have the knowledge to feed the cattle right.  You don't show at a major and penny pinch on the feed.  But a county fair level, what percentage of the cattle are fed right.  When you walk around the barn, how much cattle are fed right?  What percentage of the barn would you pull out, and will grade like that major harvest sheet?  Major showmen have the money to pay more for steer and feed.  County kids tend to have much tighter budgets.  They focus more on the steer making wt. than being fed right.  I see too many worried about breaking the 1200lbs threshold  than its steers finish.  They will cut corners to cut cost even if its to buy a cheaper sack feed. I have seen grower fed to fat steers just because the bag was $2 cheaper.  The 90% always criticize the 10% because their parents have the funds.  I know its not about that.  I teach my kids that it is about doing it right.  That means industry standards.  How many do you see get on a cattle board like steer planet to gain knowledge to feed their calf right?  I don't think its the people that care.  Its the one that don't.  (I am not criticizing all showmen.  I know some don't have the funds and still manage to feed them right.  But some just do it to do a project and don't care.  They are what makes the rest of Show cattle look wrong.)

 

[SWMO]

Bawndoh I think maybe you are looking at this the wrong way.  Someone mentioned before that this is a hobby - I'll even go farther and say it is a project.  If my kids' steer won't eat it is an education process to the kid to find out why and what to do to fix it and what to do better next time.  Will we buy a calf with the same breeding again, maybe not, but in the meantime we aren't going to give up because the calf is a picky eater.  This project has effects on other parts of their lives down the road.  If every picky show steer went to the sale barn and they started all over would they be more apt to give up on the next project too and just start over.  At our house you pick a calf to begin with and you see it through to the end point - through the rough hair, through the picky eating etc.  As far as mixing your own feed or buying bagged feed - we use the bag feed as a base in some cases and add to it if needed - other calves it serves as a complete ration.  Sometimes I think we forget that most steer projects are for the juniors - they need to be learning while they are doing.

(clapping) (clapping) (clapping)

"At our house you pick a calf to begin with and you see it through to the end point - through the rough hair, through the picky eating etc. "

I whole heartedly agree on these being a project and a learning process for the kids.  This is they way it works at our house also.  Have even had a steer not make the sale on the county level.  We all usually learn more from our failures than we do from our successes.

 

[kanshow]

The small numbers make it impossible for us to feed show cattle the same as we do our feedlot cattle.  As someone else mentioned.. feedstuffs have to be kept fresh, etc.    We also are feeding to different end dates/results.  We don't want to have the fat cattle finishing for county fairs.  Then theres the heifers..we don't want all of our replacement heifers as fat as our show heifers and if they aren't a show heifer - they need to be in the pasture utilizing forage.

We do mix our own feed here and we do make periodic adjustments to each animal's ration as needed.