site...PROMINENT HERITAGE (NATIVE) SHORTHORN BULLS BORN PRIOR TO 1985

[librarian]

Great pictures and info on many old bulls. A few pictures I've never seen.
https://www.heritageshorthorn.org/bulls/

 

[justintime]

I have semen on several of these bulls and remember many more of them. Some were bulls that could sire some useful cattle for today, and some weren't very good when they walked on earth and would be even less good today. I have semen in my tanks from Crestdale Super Flag 14G, Boa Kae Royal Oak, Four Point Major, Hub's Director, Mandalong Super Flag, TPS Coronet Leader 21st, and Meadowbrook Chieftain 16th.

 

[aj]

Interesting site. Good organization. Doesn't hurt to have a large gene pool around.

 

[kiblercattle]

I have always wondered how tiny Tim would work today. Does anyone have any different picture of him than the web site shows. This is the only picture of him I've ever seen.

 

[GM]

Who would you eliminate from this group?  Scottshill Major Clark has my vote.  Could be in the running with Ayatollah, Improver, and Dreamboat for biggest longterm negative impact. 

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Who would you eliminate from this group?  Scottshill Major Clark has my vote.  Could be in the running with Ayatollah, Improver, and Dreamboat for biggest longterm negative impact. // (clapping) (clapping) (lol) <party> <party> (thumbsup)

 

[Doc]

Who would you eliminate from this group?  Scottshill Major Clark has my vote.  Could be in the running with Ayatollah, Improver, and Dreamboat for biggest longterm negative impact.

Just curious why you would eliminate Clark and Improver?

 

[GM]

Dairy, and TH. 

 

[Medium Rare]

The variation in type and kind as you go down the list is interesting.

I believe I still have 7 of these bulls, but I see two or three I wish I had. One of these days I'd like to find a couple "native" cows being kept in normal pasture conditions that just blow me away.

 

[justintime]

I just realized that I wrote Meadowbrook Chieftain 16th in my original comment here. I intended to say Meadowbrook Prince 16th and Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th.
I had some outstanding daughters of Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th and I still consider them to be some of the best females I ever owned. They all had near perfect udders, milked well and maintained their condition on grass and hay to eat. They were moderate framed, had some guts and adequate muscling. In my herd, Chieftain 9th sired much better females than bulls. I remember one very good bull from him, but most leaned a bit too far to the dairy side when it came to having adequate muscling. This never showed up as much with his daughters, probably because the genetics behind Chieftain 9th were selected mainly on good females for decades and many generations. I also have a couple vials of Meadowbrook Prince 16th, who was much more popular in that era, however, I always felt that Chieftain 9th was the better breeding bull.  I found his daughters to be more consistent than the Prince 16th daughters, but a good Prince 16th daughter was very very good!
I will always remember my first trip to Ontario to view some dual purpose herds. I was fresh out of college and was thinking of adding a couple dual purpose females to our herd as we were planning to increase the size of our herd. After one day of viewing herds, I phoned my dad and told him I had just seen some of the best Shorthorn cows I had ever seen, and that I could buy some at pretty reasonable prices. Dad told me to try to buy some and I ended up buying 38 cows. I remember buying 10 cows in one herd, that were sorted off and waiting for a truck to pick them up and take them to the slaughter plant. I bought them all for $300 each. If I had got to this farm 30 minutes later, I would never have seen them. They turned out to be some of the best producing cows I ever owned. The owner was shipping them as they were in the bottom end of his herd's milk production and that was exactly what I was wanting for beef cows. I remember walking into many of these barns and being absolutely amazed by the quality I was looking at. I don't think there are any of these true dual purpose herds left in Canada, as they have all moved to breeding for milk production and dairy characteristics. The only place I have seen any dual purpose Shorthorns even close to similar to these cows, was at the Royal Highland show in Scotland a few years ago. There was a few similar cows showing in the Milking Shorthorn show there.

 

[beebe]

The variation in type and kind as you go down the list is interesting.

I believe I still have 7 of these bulls, but I see two or three I wish I had. One of these days I'd like to find a couple "native" cows being kept in normal pasture conditions that just blow me away.

Just curious as to what it would take to blow you away?

 

[Medium Rare]

Just curious as to what it would take to blow you away?

A cow that looks similar to the one you brought out of Canada with some tweaks would probably work.

Frame 5.5-6, a big wide top, good depth, and correct hook/pin set, a good calving interval over 6 or 7 calves while still carrying a good udder, all done in a real world working setting and not a hobby type situation where they fall apart when I bring them home. If she had a fescue score that didn't scare me, a line bred pedigree, and some progeny scan data with better than average imf ratios it would help. Basically, a proven cow or two I could flush a time or three with my limited semen and come away with a small group to work with. No belt buckles, no frail structure, no bottle teats, no terrible weaning weights. Modern performance in a true native package that I wouldn't regret using my last Leader 9th on.

I think I know where to go, and I've noticed their scan data, but have just not made the effort to get up there to see what a guy might find.

 

[Doc]

Dairy, and TH.

In the day Clark did a lot of good with some daughters and granddaughters. As far as Improver goes, TH or no TH, he flat produced some females. Look at the line of Margies.

 

[GM]

Dairy, and TH.

In the day Clark did a lot of good with some daughters and granddaughters. As far as Improver goes, TH or no TH, he flat produced some females. Look at the line of Margies.

I don't necessarily disagree, but in hindsight they both had negative impacts (to whatever degree) on the breed's current reputation in the beef industry.  If no Clark, would we have beefier, more commercially accepted cattle today, or did he exacerbate the size issues and notion that shorthorns were "milkers"?  And, if no Improver and subsequently no TH would the breed ultimately have a better reputation today.  That's where I was coming from with the question.  Can't deny that each produced winners and special offspring in their day.  That's a fact - as you point out.  Hindsight is 20/20.  Interesting to think about.  Of the bulls I mentioned I'd take a pasture full of TH free sons and daughters of improver over the other three anyday.  I actually really like him but he created a huge quagmire for Shorthorn breeders.

 

[beebe]

Just curious as to what it would take to blow you away?

A cow that looks similar to the one you brought out of Canada with some tweaks would probably work.

Frame 5.5-6, a big wide top, good depth, and correct hook/pin set, a good calving interval over 6 or 7 calves while still carrying a good udder, all done in a real world working setting and not a hobby type situation where they fall apart when I bring them home. If she had a fescue score that didn't scare me, a line bred pedigree, and some progeny scan data with better than average imf ratios it would help. Basically, a proven cow or two I could flush a time or three with my limited semen and come away with a small group to work with. No belt buckles, no frail structure, no bottle teats, no terrible weaning weights. Modern performance in a true native package that I wouldn't regret using my last Leader 9th on.

I think I know where to go, and I've noticed their scan data, but have just not made the effort to get up there to see what a guy might find.

Thanks for the information.  You want bigger framed cows than I do.  I don't have fescue and I worry more about tenderness than I do marbling.  What frame score do you consider belt buckle?  I prefer a frame score 4 1250 pound cow.  Nothing frail about that.  Since I don't sell much to the commodity market I worry more about the composition of the gain than I do the rate of gain.  I probably have some of what you are looking for but it is a work in progress.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Like to see some pictures of the 4.5 frame 1250-1400 pounders-gotta be stout O0

 

[Medium Rare]

Thanks for the information.  You want bigger framed cows than I do.  I don't have fescue and I worry more about tenderness than I do marbling.  What frame score do you consider belt buckle?  I prefer a frame score 4 1250 pound cow.  Nothing frail about that.  Since I don't sell much to the commodity market I worry more about the composition of the gain than I do the rate of gain.  I probably have some of what you are looking for but it is a work in progress.

Unfortunately, fescue tolerance has to trump absolutely everything here. It can cull harder and faster than the most aggressive of cowmen. Anything near a 2 is belt buckle to me and even a 3 is hard for me to look at. I personally don't have a problem with frame 4 - 1250lb cows, but the open or bred replacements in that range are a tough sell here.

How are you applying selection pressure for tenderness?

 

[beebe]

I will take some pictures.  I apply a lot of Gerald Fry's principles and I sample a lot of carcasses.  I have done some DNA testing but I am still scratching my head on some of that.

 

[idalee]

Medium Rare,  I have three Native cows that somewhat fit what  you are looking for but I don't have all the data you require.  BW,  WW  and some YW is all that I have.    Some would call me a hobby breeder but our cattle never see grain,  only hay when the pastures play out,  and their natural fleshing ability gets them fat on that program. 

 

[Cabanha Santa Isabel - BR]

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