Slick shows??

[JSchroeder]

Is it your daughter on the entry card or the ranch?

Arguing that haired is better because it rewards hard work has a ton of merit.  However, if it's not the kid doing the work, what exactly is the advantage?

edit:to be clear, I have no issue with the family helping fit, I'm just speaking within the context of slick vs haired.

 

[stangs13]

I agree with haired, and kids are fitting! Only kids at our fair are aloud to fit.

 

[DLD]

From what I got out of the original post, fitters weren't the issue.  If they're looking for a compromise, they might consider going to a blow and show (no adhesive) format.  The ones that are in favor of slicking might see it as a step in their direction.

 

[box6rranch]

Is it your daughter on the entry card or the ranch?

Arguing that haired is better because it rewards hard work has a ton of merit. However, if it's not the kid doing the work, what exactly is the advantage?

edit:to be clear, I have no issue with the family helping fit, I'm just speaking within the context of slick vs haired.

Daughter owns the herd. She works her tail off throughout the year. My husband helps with the clipping. She's getting pretty darn good with fitting too. She can fit her own if we only show one or two. I have been arguing for a couple of years now with the way our county fair is set up. If they want the kids to do all the fitting they need to break up the show. Show heifers, beeding beef, prospect calves at one time and all the steer classes at a different time. With all our cows/calves we had 7 at fair. Pretty hard for one person to fit and be in the ring at the same time. Not going to argue the fact that she should bring in less stock. She's raised them she deserves to be able to show them. BTW she won grand champ in several classes and grand champ senior showman for the second year in a row.

 

[JSchroeder]

I'm not saying your daughter shouldn't be able to show what she wants but there's a limit to what one person can do. 

If you like haired shows for the sake of the fitting, I have no qualms with it.  Just don't argue that the benefit of a haired show vs slick is that it rewards hard work if it's not the kid doing the fitting.  Teams of people fitting cattle that are supposedly one juniors' project are the biggest argument in favor of a slick show.

 

[box6rranch]

If you start our with a decent structured steer/heifer and a kid works with their cattle's hair all year and it has a decent clip job I honestly believe the fitting job at show time doesn't make a lot of difference. If it's got a halfway decent fit job the judge should be able to judge on the animal and it's components. Having said that I can't see a viable reason for a 4-Her not to be allowed to have help fitting by family and leaders on show day. Like I said before, if people are so hung up on the kids knowing the skills have them test out with someone from the extension office during the year.
If you don't think that kids who show in open classes like leather, clothing, cake decorating etc. don't have additional help I think you are fooling yourself. 4-H is a family involved activity. All the unnecessary stress and altercations on show day could easily be avoided. By limiting the kids to fit by themselves your encouraging cheating and limiting the number of animals to be shown.
We've been in 4-H for nine years now. We've seen it go from a really fun relaxed atmosphere where everyone helps and encourages everyone to a downright cut throat unfriendly experience. Can't for the life of me see what advantages have been made. Furthermore what are we teaching our kids?

 

[JSchroeder]

We’re going around in circles and I think our difference of opinion comes from a different philosophy of what junior shows are for.

Once again, I'm not saying your daughter shouldn't be able to show what she wants but there's a limit to what one person can do and everyone faces challenges.  At it’s root you are arguing for leveling the playing field for those who want to show more cattle than they can legitimately handle on their own by allowing others to fit their cattle.

Go back to your first post and notice how you referred to the projects as “we” and not “she”, it wasn’t just a typo.  If it’s not the kid doing the work, rewarding the kid for hard work isn’t a reason for haired shows in favor of slick shows.  I know that opinion doesn’t win a person friends in the clubby world but there’s no reason to pretend otherwise.

edit: please note, I'm not hung up on the kid showing the skills (those skills are worthless one foot off the show grounds), I'm hung up on the idea that hair shows reward work in situations where it's not the kid doing the work.

 

[OH Breeder]

J acob

you are not that far north of us. I think with the way it is locally that slick would be atypical. I do not know of any slick shows around here. Couple of questions? We have a few well known fitters come in and offer fitting demos the first day of the fair. I personally like it when they offer clinics through out the year. If a clinic etc is offered and kids choose not to take part how can the families say their is an unfair advantage if you are offering tips and skills for them to learn. I help as many kids as I can. I have 4 kids this year that are not my children that wanted to get a start and are "leasing" calves. I think it is said that a family is a sore loser makes problems for others. It only takes one as you already know.
There are lots of fitters that I am sure would come to your area and do a clinic. There are some great one's not far from you all.

JMO

 

[box6rranch]

We’re going around in circles and I think our difference of opinion comes from a different philosophy of what junior shows are for.

Once again, I'm not saying your daughter shouldn't be able to show what she wants but there's a limit to what one person can do and everyone faces challenges.  At it’s root you are arguing for leveling the playing field for those who want to show more cattle than they can legitimately handle on their own by allowing others to fit their cattle.

Go back to your first post and notice how you referred to the projects as “we” and not “she”, it wasn’t just a typo.  If it’s not the kid doing the work, rewarding the kid for hard work isn’t a reason for haired shows in favor of slick shows.  I know that opinion doesn’t win a person friends in the clubby world but there’s no reason to pretend otherwise.

edit: please note, I'm not hung up on the kid showing the skills (those skills are worthless one foot off the show grounds), I'm hung up on the idea that hair shows reward work in situations where it's not the kid doing the work.

4-H in our household  is a family affair. My daughter works hard during the year with our support and help. She is the one who works with the calves and gets their hair into show condition. What I am saying is it's obvious when you go to a show whether it's on the county level or not who has worked with their cows and who hasn't. What I'm saying is on show day it doesn't make any difference whether it's a family member, leader or the child fitting the cow. I don't agree with having professional fitters come in. It's obvious to the judge, other 4-H kids, parents etc which kids have worked hard with the cattle and which ones haven't. Fitting a cow for show in my opinion doesn't make or break the chances of it winning. There is more to winning then a good fitting job.
I don't understand how you can say the kids skills are worthless once the kids leave the show grounds????? Those "skills" should be practices throughout the year. Hair shows should reward the kids who put in the time and effort to get their cows hair in good showing condition. It's impossible to think that a good fitter can make up for months of a kid not working with their show cows hair. Really? Have you seen some of the kids who come to fair and haven't worked their cows hair at all or very little?
Why should it be a matter of "leveling the playing field"? Why can't it be a team effort in the entire beef barn? Doesn't make any sense to me. In my opinion we are teaching our kids to look out for number one and not how to help each other with the best of intentions.

 

[JSchroeder]

I don't understand how you can say the kids skills are worthless once the kids leave the show grounds? ? Those "skills" should be practices throughout the year. Hair shows should reward the kids who put in the time and effort to get their cows hair in good showing condition. It's impossible to think that a good fitter can make up for months of a kid not working with their show cows hair. Really? Have you seen some of the kids who come to fair and haven't worked their cows hair at all or very little?

You answered your own question.  Those skills are for getting the cattle in show condition.  When I said those skills are worthless one foot from the showgrounds I meant that knowing how to fit the hair on a steer isn’t something that is useful for anything but showing.

Why should it be a matter of "leveling the playing field"? Why can't it be a team effort in the entire beef barn?

For the third time, I'm not saying your daughter shouldn't be able to show what she wants.  I’m saying that the hard work involved with fitting is not a benefit over slick shows if it’s not the kid doing the fitting.  It's a pretty specific context in which I said that and you've taken it to mean more than I said.

 

[stangs13]

I disagree with the comment about fitting doesnt effect winning..

 

[Jacob B]

OH Breeder,
THanks for the coments.  I have offered to put on clinics like the ones that I have done in the past for other 4-H counties around the state.  I have offered to get people in that I know do a really good job at fitting one as well.  I have put on clinics in the past and then judged the fitting contests at those county 4-H shows later in the summer. We do not have a fitting contest for the kids and I am going to suggest that be a new added attraction to the fair next year.  I still like going to them if it's put on by someone that I respect because I always feel like I can learn something.  It makes it good for the kids and the parents.  Most of the time the kids that attend the clinics and participate in the contest are the ones that do all the work at home and have the calves looking good anyway.  The same parent will probably not have their kid involed in something like that.  It's easier to complain than to spend some time learning and working hard.  Thanks again.

 

[box6rranch]

I guess by some of the comments made on this thread the best we can hope for is to agree that we disagree. I think too many factors differ between counties to apply the same thoughts and principles to each. Heck people in one beef barn can't even agree so I guess it's unrealistic to expect others who don't show in the same county or same state for that matter to agree. It's a topic that can be debated from now till eternity

 

[earl]

I think the first thing you need to do is look at the facilities and see if you can handle haired cattle.  If you go back twenty years the slick show came in not because of leveling the playing field but because of the fire marshall at the houston livestock show.  Lots of people said it would not every last but it has, not because of anything but space. You have to have more room for the haired cattle show.  Also in Texas we look at the time of year, when its 104 outside its hard to have a bunch of hair.  I love haired show shows but our slick cattle take lots of work also its just not throw feed out and walk away.

 

[Jacob B]

earl, can you elaborate plaease?  What all does it take af far as everyday work besides walking them?

 

[sparty]

I know what county you are talking about. I left you a personal message.