"Slow and Steady" or "Show him who's boss"?

[Davidsonranch]

So wanting some opinions.  We have a May born Two Tone that has the potential of being a really good one.  But since weaning, his attitude has me worried a little. 
I currently have him in a small 10x20 pen.  We bring him his water morning and night and have him eating really well.  We are trying the slow and steady approach, by simply spending time with him.  Sitting in a chair while he eats, brushing him with a shop broom.  We have lots of time as our fair is not until Labor Day.  The problem is that after a couple weeks, he is still as flighty as he was at day one.  He is a kicker, and if aggitated to much, he will turn and bluff charges me. 
A good friend of mine said it's time to change directions. He said to get a halter on him and tie him to a fence post.  Give him enough slack to reach a feed bucket.  Bring him his water morning and night along with his feed.  Then start with the brushing, more and more, if he allows it.  He said he has had some really mean ones "break their attitudes" in as little as a day or two.  He had one last year that took almost a month. 
I really want to get more of a handle on this guy before he get's too much bigger. 

 

[RyanChandler]

He's taking advantage of your 'slow and steady' approach.  You need to establish dominance quick-like.  As, you've stated, when he gets bigger- this will be almost impossible to accomplish.

 

[vc]

Sent you a PM

 

[Davidsonranch]

I'm so glad you all said that!  My wife tells me that sometimes I'm impatient and too rough some times.  But I feel that this guy has had hours of patience, time and easy and we are going nowhere. 
He is getting tied up and we are switching gears.  He slipped his rope halter the other day even with a big knot in it so it will be fun getting him haltered again.  Last time I did it in the stock trailer and he took me down / out like a Mexican fighting bull!  Might have to use a chute this time
But this calf is good and I can't wait to brush him out and show him to my Steerplanet friends.
Thanks

 

[knabe]

you need to understand how he sets up his rear-end to drive and learn to disengage that rear end.  he will understand you know how to do it early.  you need to reward immediately after you disengage his rear end.  you need to stay inside his circle when doing this.  you might want to try to learn this on another calf or 10 before you try it on him as timing for both the disengagement and reward are extremely important.

 

[BTDT]

While I would encourage you to show the calf who is dominate, but I would also warn you to pick your battles and make sure you can win any battle you chose. I would also warn you to not go "all muscle" on him. I don't care how little he is right now, he has more muscle than you. If you pick a battle and lose, the game is over and the winner is the calf.
Please also keep this in mind: I am not sure if you plan on selling him or having your own children to show him, but please remember no matter no how "good" this calf is, no calf is worth getting someone injured over. (I have read many of your post and believe you would not do so, but this is just a friendly reminder!)

Good luck and please keep us posted on what you do and if it is successful.

 

[Davidsonranch]

I'm glad you brought that up because this steer is suppose to be my 70 pound 11 year old girls.  I am definitely worried and thats why Im seeking some advice.  I just want to make sure I'm getting all the advice I can becuase this calf is one notch above just being awnry.  Luckily we have a back up steer and lots of time.  I will definitely keep you posted.

 

[nate53]

I used to halter them and tie them to a big round bale feeder.  They would pull for a little while but eventually would just stand and eat hay.  It was a good starting point.

 

[obie105]

I have done what your friend suggested on a couple and it has worked well for me. Like Knabe said tho make sure it's a battle you can win. Usually a day or two and they seem to realize your not going to hurt them especially since your bringing them feed and water.

 

[CAB]

you need to understand how he sets up his rear-end to drive and learn to disengage that rear end.  he will understand you know how to do it early.  you need to reward immediately after you disengage his rear end.  you need to stay inside his circle when doing this.  you might want to try to learn this on another calf or 10 before you try it on him as timing for both the disengagement and reward are extremely important.

Knabe can you please try to explain how to disengage the calf's rear end. I have no idea of how to begin that job. Thanks, Brent.

 

[Davidsonranch]

I think another thing I'm trying to figure out is if this calf is just scared, or if he also has a touch of mean in him.  It probably is a combination of both.  I treat a lot of my calves similar to starting a colt. So responding to pressure, disengaging his rear end so he cant take off with full power, etc.

Not to change my own post, but just wondering if anyone else is currently working with some Two Tones.  A good friend of mine said that he recently helped work 3 Two Tone steers to get ready for a local sale.  He said that they were some of the hardest breaking, mean, crazy eyed steers he has worked with in 40 years. 

As I said before this calve is good, very good, but I will never put my little girl in a losing battle.  We do have a back up steer and this guy had better ease up a little soon or he is gone.

 

[GoWyo]

I think it is time to get a halter on him.  I would put him in a squeeze chute and put on a halter and run him back to his pen.  Then tie him high and long (top rail with 5-6 feet of rope between his halter and the fence and high enough so he can't get tangled up in it).  It is the same principal as high lining horses at hunting camp.  He can move around and fight it some, but will realize pretty quick how to give to the pressure to take the slack out.  I would not tie him short.  Then start working the broom and show stick on him to work through the kicking and and running off and charging.  If you get the lead tied off at the right length, he should be able to eat and lay down without tangling up so you can leave him tied while you bring feed and water until he sees the light.  You should probably tie him to a fence where you have access to him from the other side rather than a wall where he can hit or kick you when you feed.

You may want to extend the lead with some additional rope while haltering him in the squeeze chute so that you can get him tied to the fence back at his pen.

 

[kidsandkows]

I am curious to see what works for you! Keep us updated.

We have been mainly tying ours and then slowly just trying to pet on them and brush on them. Then as we let them go try to get a few steps out of them and then let them go. They have seemed to gentle down pretty quick that way. I have never had to leave one tied but I think it might have worked a few years ago we had a bull calf we wanted to show but we could never get him gentled down and we gave up on him.

 

[Davidsonranch]

Thank you everyone for advice and help.  It means a lot to me and why I love this site so much.  I will keep everyone up to date on this calf.  He is way too cool to give up yet.  One of the best calves I've seen in person or handled in the past 5 years.  We have big hopes for him.  Once I can get ahold of him will post some pics. Thanks!

 

[ia girl]

Is there another calf in the pen with him.  the buddy system is always good.  Put a radio out in his area if you can--get use to noises.

 

[knabe]

Knabe can you please try to explain how to disengage the calf's rear end. I have no idea of how to begin that job. Thanks, Brent.

i'll try and post something tomorrow with a couple of pics.  hopefully it won't be too hard as all i have to play with right now is a first calf heifer who is pretty tame.  hopefully her lack of training will make it easier to demonstrate. she hasn't had a halter on for over a year and was never really worked with.

 

[CAB]

Thanks Marc. Brent

 

[barngoddess]

Seen some great advice on here but here's what I like to do with the hot headed cases (had 2 this year...most we've had in a while!)

I like your idea of the slow and steady approach...we always try that first when breaking babies straight from the field. But obviously that's not working out for this guy. I think a good mix of the slow and steady and the dominance tactic is the key. Tie him to a sturdy post...low and loose enough so he can eat and lay down. Keep him there as long as it takes. Our longest case stayed tied there for a week. Carry feed, hay, and water to him by hand. Make him learn that if he wants fed and taken care of, he has to let you do it. Every time you do this rub his head, neck, back, whatever he'll let you touch. Just get him used to you and build your trust before using any tools on him (ie. stick, brushes, combs). One of my steer calves this year flipped whenever I tried something new on him, so I went back to basics and just got him to trust me. We've worked through getting him used to everything (he even freaked when I would spray sheen on him) and built his trust, now he's fine.

When he gets a little better, try tying his head up higher and working around him. Clean around him, walk around him, whatever. Try a brush or comb, starting at his shoulder and slowly working back. Don't try his legs until you trust that he won't kick your teeth out as soon as you touch them. If he's scared of the tools, set them around him and leave them there. I hung the curry comb in front of my steer and set the can of sheen in front of him for a good hour or two until he realized they weren't monsters. The above poster suggested a radio- very helpful! When I would tie this steer up I'd blast the radio so he got used to voices and noise.

Hope you get it worked out of him! The hardest part is getting your daughter to be able to trust him, and of course for you to be able to trust him with her!

 

[knabe]

Thanks Marc. Brent

well i tried and tried to hold the camera and making them step and take a pic at the same time is a little harder than i thought, but here goes.

the "picture" right before this one is i stopped her with her left rear foot forward of her right rear with her left rear foot toes pointing correctly ahead. as she walks in a tight circle around me with me behind her shoulder while bending her neck just enough when i smoothly walk towards her left rear hip a little bit.  at that point, they will lift their left rear leg and place it back. obviously, this is not easy to do on an unbroke animal this close, but the same thing applies.  if you are paying attention, you can catch this foot just as it is about to come up and make a tight little circle and push towards the right rear hip "through" the left hip.  at that point, there is really no where for the foot to but back and towards the other foot, but behind it.

everything is done in circles smaller and smaller so there is no tugging pulling, yanking etc, only holding.  they find the release themselves.  i'll try and get some more.

with an unbroke calf, simply stop and let them find the end of the lead, preferably in a pen so they don't learn to run away and continually walk towards their rear end, even tapping it with a twirling end of a lead.  obvioulsy they can kick, so use discretion.  at some point you will learn it.  it's actually easier on unbroken calves as they understand immediately what you are trying to do.  once they stop and be the "submissive" prey and they get petted, scratched, fed a handful of grain whatever, they give over to you.  it's so useful for them to know you know how to get them to stop with your brain instead of your brawn.

 

[knabe]

I guess another way to look at it is getting the animal to pivot on its front end. When it does that, it cant really go anywhere.  This is counterintuitive as most people are trying to pull the front end to get it to stop and i want to do the oposite to stop. Its much easier to get them to find the slack this way. Then as the learn, you use the cues less and less. At some point, it becomes extremely easy for them to mirror your every move.