So... please tell me....

[justintime]

A few days ago, I visited with a breeder of Simmental cattle and he was showing me some of his cattle. He commented about some bull and heifer calves as being really cool fronted.I could not help but think that the term " cool fronted" must have variations of definition, as the cattle we were looking at would not really be considered "cool fronted" in some other breeds.  I have seen similar comments on SP about pictures of some cattle. I must say that I look for cattle that have a certain look through their front ends when I select cattle as well, but I am really thinking that some people must put much more emphasis on it or even have a completely different definition of what this term refers to than I do.

So... my question is.... what exactly does the term " cool fronted " mean? Does it have any relativity to a bull or females productivity? Does it have any relationship to true value,or maternal  and paternal performance?  Is this just something that has show ring appeal and is it a term that has been developed to describe a certain "look"?  I have to be honest and say that I sometimes see animals that others refer to as " cool fronted" and all I see is a very frail, hard doing animal that may look pretty good as long as it is tied to a trough filled with show ration, but that will melt or even die in the real world. It must be a very important consideration, as I have seen some people select their show animals simply on the look of the animal from the shoulder forward.

I have been involved in almost all segments of this industry, and have raised several breeds of cattle, and have fed almost every kind of cattle. When I was buying cattle for our feedlot, I never once heard an order buyer say" That set of calves were really cool fronted". I have never had a commercial bull buyer walk through a pen of bulls or replacement heifers and refer to how " cool fronted " they were. There are many other selection factors in the show ring that have much to do with the functional ability of the animal in the beef industry eg: capacity, structural soundness, movement, testicle size and udder development, thickness, hair, etc.... but where does this " cool fronted" stuff fit in with the rest of these?

I would like to hear some people's definition's of what " cool fronted" refers to. I would also like to hear if this term has any relevance in the production of seed stock for the commercial industry. Also, does this term have a variation of definition between breeds? Lots to consider with this topic and I would appreciate any comments you have.

 

[FutureBreeder2013]

to me "cool fronted" has almost a totally different definition from anyone else's since in a simmi guy. I really dont know ow to describe it but i know it when i see it lol.

"freak fronted" to me is goose necked that carries that all the way up the neck to the throat area

 

[stangs13]

I was talking with a guy yesterday that has raised several champion simmental heifers, and one of the things he mentioned was that heifers that were born with out any leather, or i guess cool fronted would apply here, were harder to feed, and they were harder to put the rib in, in most cases. It seems as we get into todays type of simmental that isnt the case anymore..lots of good fronted animals with plenty of rib. Kind of interesting.

 

[SWMO]

A very clean front or a gooseneck  looks good in the show ring and we do select for an animal with less leather when considering heifers for our kids to show.  However, when I look for maternal traits and the ability to convert for cattle that we actually expect performance from all the extra leather up front is usually not even a consideration.  I feel that in our area in Missouri that some extra leather is a positive trait and not a negative trait.  Those "cows" just seem to perform better, breed back and raise a heavier calf.  The only thing that I never want to see is a whole lot of fat down in the brisket of a cow.  Those cows "to me" are putting more back for themselves than they are giving to their calf.

I happen to believe that the very best commercial cows in terms of breeding back, longevity and raising a high weaning calf will have just a touch of brahma somewhere in their background.  We used a Braford bull for almost eight years that was one of the best commercial bulls that we have ever had.  What we lost in price per pound with the small amount of ear that those calves showed we made up in pounds of calf sold.  JMO

 

[knabe]

cool fronted (in my opinion) is the latest incarnation of goosefronted, freaky fronted, rocket fronted.  new words are needed as the last incarnation loses it's effectiveness.  

i wish there was more focus on head shape and overall balance, shoulder point, how the scapula lays down, withers.  if you look at heat wave's head and his clones, that should be a clue what he needs to be bred to and is lacking at least on the front end.

one thing i look on shorter necked cattle is what they do with their front feet when grazing. i do agree some can get a little to "warm" fronted, ie stub necked.

 

[CPL]

I asked my Livestock Judging Coach about this last year. He said it was originally started by the the feedlot. Cattle develop fat from front to year, so the bigger the brisket the more fat it will take to fill up. So it takes extra to fill the brisket before it begins to put fat over the ribs, etc. As with many others things the show ring took it to an extreme. It seems like a heifer can't be feminine without being super clean front.

I'm sure theres many other stories about how this came about, but this one at least made sense to me.

 

[knabe]

to me an oversize brisket looks like the bulbous bow of boats.  so the two extremes for me are bulbous bull and goose fronted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulbous_bow

 

[Jill]

I guess in my opinion it is a strictly show ring quality, cool fronted to me is the long necked slick fronted animal that looks really nice in the show ring, but out in the pasture they are the skinny ones that don't keep condition and normally don't stick around long.  Great quality in a show heifer huge negative in a cow!

 

[Diamond]

Like a lot of things, I believe the show ring takes things to the extreme in America. If heatwave (and not saying he will, and im not sure if he has had one done) came back with a 1 star tenderness gene would people stop using him, no. TH and PH are still around because, those cattle win. So why would the quality and taste of meat effect that. Now, im sure if there where cook-off’s at the shows, maybe we would see some diff. bulls being used but, who knows. As far as terms go, well, I take it in stride, I have heard everything from sexy lines (really?) to a heifer who was a heck of a lot nicer then the the rest in her class knocked to the bottom because, she lacked hair. I mean I have to agree, nothing is more tasty than a slab of fuzz on my role with ketchup and onions.  :

In my opinion, I wouldn’t knock a nicer heifer for a bit, to much leather, however if it came to a close match a refined front is a bit nicer.

That really begs the question, why cant people just say what we mean instead of coming up with crazy 'terms' that way the people who are just watching can understand what a judge is talking about. I swear when the judge threw out that sexy lines thing a woman in the stands eyes looked like they where going to pop out of her head.

 

[LN]

All these silly terms come from collegiate livestock teams trying to top one another and sound edgy when they give their reasons. I asked one of my friends who judged at the collegiate level and that's the explanation I got.

Along with the cool-fronted term, how did the term soft come along? When I think of soft, I think of towels that just came out of the dryer, or charmin...haha, not how a cow looks.

Anyway, is it just my perspective, or to be qualified to judge a show anymore, you had to have been on a collegiate team. What about people with real world experience? I can certainly attest that most of my show heifers that did some winning were crap in the pasture and most are hamburger now. A few broke the mold, but not many. Some of my heifers that didn't do a lot of winning are the most problem-free animals that raise the best calves every year and I wish I had a 100 just like them. I guess because I have the perspective of showring and real world, it'd be nice if they could resemble each other a little closer. Oh well, rant over.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Sounds like it would refer to cattle that are usually thick but tend to be a little course in the shoulder-chest cavity what have you? -but in the case of Frreeeky fronted are all that minus the courseness plus some other "front end extension" O0

 

[oakbar]

I personally don't mind seeing a little brisket on a heifer.  Not a huge bulbous brisket but not a completely flat hard looking chest either.  Most of my cattle that have some brisket development seem to be the best doing, best gaining cattle I have.  Conversely, the extremely goose necked, flat chested seem to be the hardest doing calves I have and the hardest cows to keep in good natural condition.  Many of them run the risk of being narrow fronted if they are too "goosey" and my suspicion is that if we measured their heart girth (not hair) we would find they are lacking compared to those with a little more naturally formed, well extended neck!!  As in many cases,  preferences shown by judges in the showring  may accentuate something that is quite different from what we would select for in the real world of producing efficient, fast gaining beef animals. This is not really a criticism, just an observation.  I was once told (by a veteran of the cattle industry that I respect very much) that if you clean the neck up too much you run the risk of narrowing the entire neck, shoulder, and rib structure to the point of restricting the natural air pathways and lungs and run a greater risk of having more frequent respiratory problems.  I often think of his perspective when looking at extremely "freaky" fronted cattle. 

At the other end of the spectrum, I am bothered by a short neck.  IMHO a short neck often comes with a more upright shoulder angle, more restricted movement and a tendency to fill in with fat over the front edge of the shoulder  I don't like fat deposits in this area nor do I think they are good for the well being of the animal (or people for that matter).  I like a trim, extended neck that carries into a well angled, clean shoulder with enough width to allow good natural spring of rib.    However, I understand that these factors may not  pair up easily in the real world.  A well angled shoulder is extremely important in the overall movement of the animal and is very important in the long term as far as soundness and longevity in the breeding herd.  I personally believe that a short neck or a neck with "too much leather" is one of the most difficult things to "breed out"!

I guess the bottom line for me is that I like a well balanced animal that is neither too "goosey" nor too "chuffy"( as my father used to say).  If they have a small brisket that doesn't really bother me, but may actually indicate a more thrifty animal than the total lack of one.

There--the world of necks according to Oakbar--and maybe even a couple more descriptive terms!!  JMHO

My theory in looking for the cattle I like came from the TV show  Kung Fu, for those of you old enough to remember it.  "In all things, Balance, Grasshopper!! Balance!!"

 

[evermoor]

It is funny how the fads come and go. Ive beeen out for awhile so  when Ifirst saw ground sow, soggy, along with cool fronted, a little confusion followed.  Much has changed from tiny angus and hereford to chi's on stilts and even tose yellow spotted extra leathered simmis

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

My definition of cool fronted varies a little from females to bulls to steers.
  In my females I define it as a feminine trait with good length of neck that lays into the shoulder properly and a female should look like a female, not a steer. In a breeding animal I believe that a little "leather" is a maternal feature, notice that I said a little. A "cool" fronted female will be feminine not freaky, this is a feature some people have trouble identifying or differentiating.
Bulls should be masculine but can still be "cool" fronted. There is nothing sweeter than a bull with an extended neck that ties into his shoulders correctly without giving up his masculine look. I think there are too many short fronted bulls that do not tie their neck into thier shoulders correctly. These bulls look too "hard" to me.
Steers are a different beast all of their own. A real cool fronted steer will likely be a hard feeding animal that has been specifically bred for the freaky show steer look. Very little if any leather, with an extended neck that almost appears to have been pulled out of the shoulders and molded to fit. I will admit that these steers are really cool to look at, but in the real world they would probably loose money in a commercial feed lot.
Cool fronted, sweet fronted, goose fronted or freak fronted are all terms that judges and/or breeders use loosely to describe cattle in their given settings. RW

 

[sue]

I think this would imply the neck being the length of a race horse??? bY THE WAY WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE HORSE INDUSTRY?? Tooth pick on legs?

We dropped off a  bull at  a stud a month ago. I walked through and  THE brand name bulls  I cannot mention - but if that was cool fronted - dont call me at calving time. Noticed that  Giraffe like necks with  lower base width I could lay length wise in  ( 60 plus inches). Some dragging the rear leg or legs .
Frankly none of them had real muscle - high Twisted, short hipped and may produce wide tracking but by false pretences-  : Wide tracking because the heels never touch the ground..... In other words - what ever happened to length of stride. JIT are u sheltered up there - my list is much longer this could mean another whole thread. Wide tracking is my personal issue.

good post

 

[justintime]

I am glad to see many of the comments posted here. I am old enough to have seen many fads come and go, but this cool fronted ( aka Goose fronted, freaky fronted, etc etc etc) seems to be one fad that seems to make its way from one era to another. Maybe what it is called changes with time, but I think this concept has been around for a long time. I am certainly not opposed to females that are clean fronted ( or bulls for that matter) but at the same time, I truly believe there are limits to any trait where too much of a good thing can become a very bad thing.

I think I like many of the same things many of you do in regards to what a female or male should look like in regards to their front ends. What concerns me sometimes, is how much importance some judges seem to put on this trait. That is the real reason I am asking these questions, as I am not 100% convinced in my own mind if this cool fronted ( call it by whatever term you want to) has as much economical importance in any part of the industry, whether it be in the seed stock, commercial, or clubby parts, as is being placed on it. As I have mentioned on here before, I am convinced many people confuse femininity with fraility. I am afraid that many of these longer necked, clean fronted females are not much earthly good after their show halter is removed for the last time. This could lead to another discussion.... that being what is the definition of a feminine female. Is it defined by a certain look, or should femininity refer more to the production of a female. By this I mean is a 12 year old cow that has had 10 live calves all born within a few weeks of each other, every year, a feminine female .... no matter what she looks like? Or is femininity much more than this?  More food for thought....

 

[sue]

Let's pick on Salute.
Do you suppose his mama would be pulling grass with her own teeth to this day or even as a 3 year old ??? Or did TYPe and kind get in the way of her success- like show ring success.
Confident cattle breeders would look at a  REAl track record, epds, longevity, etc. Where does this Cool thing start and stop???  Is it a front end thing... really or just one flollowing another.
Cool fronted, square hipped and wide tracking - let's not foget good haired. Please let's linebreed more of the same...cuz I am not a breeder, but just a mulitplier. I doubt this ends at the front end \\\

 

[justintime]

Sue, I do not think that I was wanting to refer to any particular sire or any particular line of cattle in any breed when I started this discussion.  Salute has little to do with this topic in my opinion. Now that you have mentioned Salute I will say that I have had no issues with my Salute sired cattle. All have been born unassisted with good BWs and mine have all been structurally sound. In fact, I am so impressed with my Salute first calf heifers that I purchased a couple more this fall. Maybe I have been very lucky, but my Salute sired cattle have been more functional and had lower BWs than some of ones I have had from some other so called purebred sires.

This discussion was intended to be a general discussion on these terms rather than particular bulls/ bloodlines.

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

JIT - excellent food for thought. I think there is a difference between femininity and maternalitity (is that a word?) To me femininity is more of a phenotypical trait. A cow doesn't have to be feminine to be maternal, there are many sloppy, course made, basically ugly cows for lack of a better term in production all around the world. They breed back year after year and likely wean off big old ugly calves that make their mark when they cross the scale at sale time. I don't consider this type of cow to be feminine as they sometimes resemble their male counterparts more closely than some of their female counterparts. A good friend of mine has a herd of Fleckvieh's that is a perfect example of this. They are big, sloppily made cows that raise some big calves every year. In comparison my cows look like beauty contestants when compared to his. He is happy with his cows and I am happy with mine and in spite of our differing oppinions on the ideal cow we have remained good friends for years. Just more rambleing from RW

 

[knabe]

Or is femininity much more than this?   More food for thought....

much less.  and she would have less of a food production record statistically.

to me, the show industry suffers from the same problem thoroughbreds do when they shifted from mature races to the futurity, ie kentucky derby as the most lucrative.  people lost sight and the need for the look of mature adults with secondary sexual characteristics.