stampede steer disqualified the facts and real problem

[cattlecountry]

lol knabe! I agree when it gets this politcal it takes the fun right out of it! DL all i am saying is in this country where we live, we are all innocent till proven guilty. These young people deserve to be heard and proof of the drug tests! If you are being accused of something you want proof. They have asked for the proof so why won't the stampede provide it! And why wasn't the steer committee involved, after all they are the power here. All they are asking for is the drug results. In my mind that is more than fair! It is up to the accuser to provide the proof. There is alot that went wrong here! The use of Banamine is the least of the issue in my mind! There is alot of unanswered questions that need to be answered. 1. Why was the steer route changed to a different location. 2. Why were the owners never notified of anything. 3. Why was the steer committee never consulted. 4. Why won't the stampede board release the drug results to the owner or even show them. 5. Why when there is witnesses to the vet agreeing to the Banamine that the stampede board is saying it's just hear say. 6. Why did the Vice president of the steer committee resign because of the way it was handled.
There was alot going on behind the scenes here we need to know about. We can't just assume these individuals are cheaters and liars when no one willl provide proof of guilt. Thats why i say and still do say congratulations to them! In my mind they are not guilty as of yet and are still the winners.

 

[knabe]

They are show people and therefore guilty of transgressions beyond imagination.

Burn them and ban all animal husbandry and the need for vets at all

Burn them I say. Slowly so we can relish in the slow bubbling burning of human flesh.

All show people are evil and a pox on the earth.

Burn them I say burn them.

Next we go after vets and anyone who tills the earth.

Only hunter gathering should be allowed.

All others should be burned.

 

[DLD]

Urine and/or blood testing needs to be done immediately after the animal leaves the show ring - once the animal is out of sight of the show officials or the exhibitor,  there's room to question when or by whom an illegal substance was introduced.  If carcasses are going to be checked for drug residue, then those animals need to stay together and be overseen by a show official until they are slaughtered.  If they're not all slaughtered, then the moment when they leave the premium sale ring, they need to become the property and responsibility of the show.  Any kind of testing outside of those parameters again leaves too much question as to when and by whom the illegal substance was introduced. If a show's going to drug test, they need to do it right, or not at all.

 

[DLD]

They are show people and therefore guilty of transgressions beyond imagination.

Burn them and ban all animal husbandry and the need for vets at all

Burn them I say. Slowly so we can relish in the slow bubbling burning of human flesh.

All show people are evil and a pox on the earth.

Burn them I say burn them.

Next we go after vets and anyone who tills the earth.

Only hunter gathering should be allowed.

All others should be burned.

But what happens when there's no more meat to hunt at the Piggly-Wiggly, and no more produce to gather at Wal-Mart? 

Will there be anyone left to burn?

Guess I won't have to worry 'bout it, I'm getting burned in the first round with the rest of the show people...

 

[knabe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came

 

[Gargan]

Are on site vets responsible to know the rules of the show they are at? Or are they there solely to look after the well being of the animals present?

 

[knabe]

why don't the vet society of animals that may be used for fairs come up with an education and enforcement plan.

coordinate with producers who wish to participate that vets will be collecting blood samples and reporting results with full transparency and do it in front of everyone and list the schedule that vets will be doing it so curious/interested/ignorant and even jocks can watch.

this continual eyes of mordor is way past ridiculous.

maybe have a booth on why testing is important and how it is done in industry and use it as both an educational and enforcement tool.

this constant moral bashing is not productive and only turns people off and gives the perception, just like this thread, that showing cattle is nothing more than verbal warfare worse than any little league game.

 

[DL]

Are on site vets responsible to know the rules of the show they are at? Or are they there solely to look after the well being of the animals present?

It is not clear from the "facts" in the press release if the vet was "a vet" or the "event vet"

In general the veterinarian at an event is responsible for
1) making sure animals are moved into the event with the proper paperwork and identification (ie health certificate, RFID or breed tattoo or metal or bangs tag etc)
2) making sure the animals at the event are healthy and not bringing in an infectious or contagious disease
3) evaluating/treating sick or injured animals

In general they are responsible for knowing the state (or province) and country laws but not the event rules and reg - that is the responsibility of the owner. So while the "facts" say that the vet "said it was ok" he or she may have been thinking of the slaughter withhold, and not the rules of the show or he or she may have been thinking of the welfare of the animal and not the rules of the show - it is not clear from the "facts" what he or she meant when they "approved" the use of the drug.

I agree cc that these events are political and esp when money is involved politics raises it's ugly head. I also agree with DLD (how are ya?) that the timing and "chain of evidence" for drug testing is crucial.

It appears from the "facts" in the press release that they broke the rules and got caught and they are looking to blame anyone but themselves

 

[cattlecountry]

lol DL you are too much. Yes the vet was the officiating Vet of the stampede and yes Gargan they should know the rules and advise accordingly! Out of the respect for the vet i will not mention his name as people like DL will jump to conclusions on who is guilty or not! And DL i know vets too and asked their opinion, some of them actually feel the boys did not break the rules! This is all about interpretation of the rules and how you interpret them! DL put your name into the stampede and be the vet next year and put it in black and white for all of us to see. Quit saying the boys are guilty and broke the rules when you have no proof they did and if you do come forward then! This is about being transparent and open for everyone involved!

 

[cattlecountry]

In defense of the vet at the stampede i have this to say! There has never been as far as i know a steer ever blood tested, it wasn't till after the show that it was demanded. So how was anyone to  expect this dilemna when obviously this steer was targeted for disqualification! The vet wouldn't have even expected this. I mean if anyone wanted to challenge the steer it wasn't like the boys were not honest about what they did or what advice they got! So it was no secret the steer had Banamine during the show! Why? Cause they asked the officiating vet! So anybody and i mean anybody who knew this could cry foul play and ask for the blood test knowing what the results will be. Like i said before we as adults guide and mentor our young people so what are we teaching them? Next time don't be so honest and just put the drug in, thats the message here we could be delivering! I think the message here we should be teaching is we have officials in place they should be listened too and give them the respect of taking on a thankless job especially in this case! Imagine how this vet feels!  I feel bad for him as he is probably under a gag order right now from the stampede and can't even answer questions! The truth might never be known. I feel bad for the boys as well as obviously someone felt they shouldn't win and a poor loser took it into there power to prove it! Now it is politics! Or as we say a bunch of B.S> With or without Banamine it was one hell of a steer and if you had seen it you would agree it had the right to be at the top!

 

[knabe]

burn them alive.  it's worse than murder.

 

[chambero]

Where this tale falls apart is the sample collection.  I would be shocked if it wasnt done by the vet or under his supervision.  If he had told this family what they say he told them, I cant imagine that he would not have spoke up. 

Why are other competitors "evil" for turning someone in that they saw shooting their steer up with something?

Lesson - if anyone tells (official, vet, etc) you that you can break a show rule or potentially a law in this case - you better get it in writing.  I'd wager that vet did not tell them what they said he did.  If he did, he exceeded his authority and show was correct in enforcing their rules, but the vet should also be disciplined - which would happen behind closed doors anyway.  I also suspect the family has publicized this.  The show probably wont unless taken yo court.

This kind of issue is not complicated.  Your steers have to be clean when they enter the ring.  I'm pretty sure in Tx you are violating a law if you take a calf to the sale barn with drug residue.  You dont know when that animal is slaughtered after it leaves your control.

I use banamine, dex, antiobiotics as needed during the year, but I know when its time to stop to make sure their system is clear before a terminal show.  You can scream unfair all you want, but you are dumb to not think a show might test your animal if you win.  It has been thst way a long time.

A former classmate of mine was an official show vet at a Tx major.  About the only thing steers in Tx ever get DQ'd for is dex or banamine.  Steroids are very rare (at least getting caught for sure is) down here - even where the $$ are the biggest.  Muscle is rarely the deciding factor in winning - it's being sound and balanced while carryin that muscle.

If the same situation happened in Tx, that calf would be DQ'd 100 times out of 100.  Calgary needs to copy Houston's rulebook to avoid confusion on this issue - if there even is any in reality.

There are lots if really good calves.  Many go by the wayside every year because of soundness or injury.  We lost a great one last year because of it. We used every trick in the book to keep him together - till we hit the date my vet said we had to stop to be safe on residue issues.  We did - he fell apart - and I had to take him to the locker.  Dont expect pity from people that play this game hard - but obey the rules even when it costs.  There aint a check big enough or a banner pretty enough to tempt me to take a chance on my kids getting to in this kind of news story.

 

[DL]

lol DL you are too much. Yes the vet was the officiating Vet of the stampede and yes Gargan they should know the rules and advise accordingly! Out of the respect for the vet i will not mention his name as people like DL will jump to conclusions on who is guilty or not! And DL i know vets too and asked their opinion, some of them actually feel the boys did not break the rules! This is all about interpretation of the rules and how you interpret them! DL put your name into the stampede and be the vet next year and put it in black and white for all of us to see. Quit saying the boys are guilty and broke the rules when you have no proof they did and if you do come forward then! This is about being transparent and open for everyone involved!

Yeah, so they say. You have made many statements and presented them as "facts" - In the interest of "transparency" what is your documentation that the Stampede Accredited Veterinarians are responsible for knowing the show rules? Do you have a list of responsibilities for the Stampede Accredited Veterinarians or did you just make that up and present it as fact? If indeed what you say is true (and I doubt it) then this particular veterinarian appears to be unfamiliar with the rules of the Stampede. (see rule 4 ) and as Chambero says should have stepped up to the plate

What is your evidence that the veterinarian who said it was OK to give Banamine to this steer was a Stampede Accredited Veterinarian? or perhaps was it the uncle of the competitor whose steer tested positive for Banamine?

The Stampede rules state "4. The Exhibitor acknowledges and agrees that any animal requiring care by a veterinarian must consult a Stampede accredited Veterinarian and that Stampede Accredited Veterinarians are required to bring to the attention of Stampede
officials any concerns or issues that may arise. Without limitation to any other provision contained herein, Stampede officials have the authority to discipline any person, including (without limitation) personnel, contestants, contractors and exhibitors who compromise the wellbeing of an animal." - by the "facts" presented the veterinarian who allegedly said it was ok to give Banamine apparently did not do this.

You have decided that this is a vendeta and a cover up based on a variety of "facts" including that the steer was later housed at a competitors facility - according to a post by vcsf  "Dr. Miller's son did take part in the show however, by looking at the class results it appears that he only had a steer entered in the junior section so was not in direct competition with the steer in question." Further the Moore Veterinary Centre - with its 10 veterinarians - is linked to the Stampede web page under "Animal Care" along with  Alberta SPCA, Alberta Farm Animal Care, Calgary Humane Society, Moore Equine Veterinary Centre Ltd. so it is likely the event and the Moore Veterinary Centre have an ongoing relationship
http://corporate.calgarystampede.com/animal-care/

Further the rules state : "The act of entering of an animal in a fair or livestock show is the giving of verification by the owner, exhibitor, fitter, trainer, or absolutely responsible person that he or she has read the IAFE Code of Show Ring Ethics and understands the consequences of and penalties provided for actions prohibited by the code. It is further a consent that any action which contravenes these rules and is also in violation of federal, state, or provincial statutes, regulations, or rules may be released to appropriate law enforcement authorities with jurisdiction over such infractions."

In addition the rules state (B.3.h) . "The Exhibitor agrees to report any occurrences of misbehavior or misconduct of others to the Agriculture Show Office staff immediately;" so if other people report the use of Banamine they are following the rules not involved in a political cover up

Perhaps it is the grassy knoll you see  - you would have had a field day with Watergate

Hi chambero - hope you are well

 

[cattlecountry]

DL i feel like a broken record with you! You are obviously personal with this and realize that you may just be freinds with the people involved and are taking a side before the facts are all out! I am saying these young people deserve to appeal the decision and yes deserve to be heard! And yes if it is proven the vet did give the advice in front of witnesses then yes the boys should be rewarded their title back! As far as rules you want to quote! Rule 19 give power over all the rule you state in the fact that rule 19 says" The calgary stampede committeereserves the right to decide on any pointcovered or not covered by the above regulations". Lets get this straight the steer committee never made a decision and were never actually consulted unless you say Don miller the president was consulted and therefore acted on behalf of the committee without consulting the committee. If this was the case i cry foul play! Like i said before its all open to interpretation of the rules and a process that went wrong! And i myself after competing with Don millers son would not want my steer going to his place when i would be under the understanding it was to got to the processors for ten days where it was neutral ground! Furthermore i would only think it proper that Millers asked the owner if they could take the steer INSTEAD OF LEAVING THE OWNERS IN THE DARK! If you want an expert to tamper with a steer the best person is a vet! Especially a competing one! So yes i take issue the owner never knew the steer went to millers! The Owner has a right to know where his cattle go and how they are cared for!

 

[doc-sun]

I hope my vet would avoid an argument over a steer show on a gossip rag

 

[DLD]

I'm good, thanks DL.  How 'bout you?  I do agree with you that it's the exhibitors responsibility to know the rules,  but I think it's the vet's also - they know they're dealing with market animals, if they have any question they should take a moment to look at the rules or consult with the superintendents before they prescribe treatment.  I understand that many people doubt that the vet did prescribe the banamine,  but I've been there, had the official vet not only prescribe but administer it, and tell me it was okay to show him,  so I guess that makes it a whole lot more believable to me.  But, that's been over 10 years ago - I don't think it would happen in this part of the world now.  Just like chambero,  I wouldn't take that chance with my kids now, either.

 

[DL]

DL i feel like a broken record with you! You are obviously personal with this and realize that you may just be freinds with the people involved and are taking a side before the facts are all out!

cc - I have no idea who these people are, I have never been to the Stampede and there is nothing personal about this to me - winning at all costs sometimes costs. Break the rules and get caught is the chance you (generic) take. Do they have the right to appeal - yup. Will they appeal - who knows. Will they be exonerated - who knows. The only "facts" available are from a press release - the information you have provided is purely your opinion on a situation you obviously have a vested interest in and you "may just be freinds [sic] with the people involved and are taking a side before the facts are all out!"

So the lack of facts continues - we don't know who administered the drug, how it was administered, at what dose and how many times - those are key "facts" that are missing. We don't know who the vet was, what exactly he/she said, if it was misinterpreted by the owners, and if the vet was "Stampede Accredited" - we don't know what the job description and responsibilities of the "Stampede Accredited" veterinarians. However, we do know what the owners signed regarding the rules and regulations, and based on that it certainly appears that they broke the rules.

So I am with DLD and chambero here - why take the chance - if your calf is good enough to win play by the rules. If you (generic) break the rules and get caught it is your (generic) fault - not anyone else. Man up  (generic), take responsibility for your (generic) actions and do better next time - blaming everyone else and whining is tiresome

DLD - good here too

doc sun - IMHO since many young people read this site I think perhaps it is important to note that not everyone believes it is ok to not follow the rules - this to me is a generic ethical issue - and just because I am a vet does not preclude me from discussing the generic issue (that I have no involvement in and that has been in the international news) HOWEVER veterinary client patient confidentially (as well as ethics) would preclude and prevent me or any other vet (yours included) from discussing either in person or on line a client issue with anyone other than the client - hope that clears it up for you

 

[knabe]

the continual characterization of winning at all costs is not persuasive.

vets should participate in this process to educate, help the public, rather than continually portraying them as if they should be burnt at the stake.

vets are not the police or the judge or the jury and executioner.

how can we all help in the future?

saying people will do anything to win and at all costs is taking a side before all the facts are out.

perhaps we should end the vet/patient/client and producer confidentiality.

all drugs should have paperwork, use logs, disposal logs etc.

the public has a right to know how drugs are distributed anywhere.

 

[Big Time]

It doesn't matter where the steer is from, US steers have won Calgary before. That is not an issue, so don't make one! Genetics are bought and sold freely and American genetics are very accepted in Canada. This is NOT a one sided issue, the process was definitely flawed, not a first for Stampede, need to be fixed? Absolutely!!! The Stampede has many ambiguous rules and lots are left to interpretation, not completely unusual but as a competitor when you go to Calgary there is no room to be naive, you need to be prepared. If they had paid the vet to give the injection the controversy would be over. This is terrible publicity, you brought a cripple to the steer show and bluffed your way to a win, you got busted, put on your big girl panties take your punishment and move forward!!! Is the Stampede right in the process, probably not but this is not a hard luck tale of woe, you gambled on a steer with a known injury suck it up boys it didn't work!

 

[BTDT]

I have read both threads again, and then again, and yet again.  And all I am certain of is that the TRUE, REAL FACTS of the situation are still being "discovered" by the public. 
CattleCountry - I feel you are taking this personally for some reason. Maybe you know them, maybe you don't. Maybe you have been part of such a situation, maybe not.  But "your facts" have an obvious slant in favor of the accused family. And that is ok.
DL - Her livelihood has been spent educating people, doctoring animals and people, and researching livestock issues. She has seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. And I am guessing in her line of work, she see's more of the bad and ugly than the good.

Until the TRUE REAL FACTS are made public, all everyone is doing is forming an opinion based on personal experience and one sided "facts" that are actually opinion.  I am all for healthy debate, but lets not make it personal and get hateful toward another when all they are doing is what we are doing ourselves.

The best thing we can do right now, is try to be constructive and offer suggestions on how the rules can be clarified (if needed). But keep in mind, you can not legislate morality and for every black, there is a white, and therefore a grey.  Sometimes you just have to accept that at one point and time, common sense will have to take precedence over lack of written rules.