Steer show classifications...is it time to change?

[rackranch]

I like it the way it is. we all have the same rules and three guys throwing chips.  You get in or you don't.  Very few get really angry, it is a game most enjoy playing.  It aint broke, don't fix it!!!

 

[ifinditfunny]

I can understand why a PB breeder might be aggravated by the classification system, but it actually takes all the lying out of it. If you read the rules at Texas majors it lists sets of visual characteristics that cattle must meet to be eligible to show in that breed. Nowhere does it say animal needs to be PB.  This eliminates all lying. You teach your kids. These are the rules, we find steers that meet these visual characteristics and show them under said breed.  We have shown under all different scenarios and truly feel this is the most honest way to do it.

I just can't. I can understand several reasons how you could defend the classification system, but I don't get this. Let me get this straight, because the rules state that you must meet certain visual criteria of a specific breed, as opposed to having registration papers for the animal to prove breed status, presenting an animal as a specific breed, in a breed show, that is not of the same species is not lying?

I understand what the rules say. I don't have a problem with people doing it, the rules allow for it to happen, but I don't get the justification that you are giving. At least tell it like it really is, you believe you have a better chance of winning a breed show by walking a crossbred in the ring that will get past the judges during classification. That's the bottom line.

Im not claiming they are PBs. Nor is anyone I know. We know they are crossbreds and we tell our kids we are looking for one that fits these visual characteristics. 

 

[ifinditfunny]

I like it the way it is. we all have the same rules and three guys throwing chips.  You get in or you don't.  Very few get really angry, it is a game most enjoy playing.  It aint broke, don't fix it!!!

Thank you. The people participating like it! 

 

[Medium Rare]

I just can't. I can understand several reasons how you could defend the classification system, but I don't get this. Let me get this straight, because the rules state that you must meet certain visual criteria of a specific breed, as opposed to having registration papers for the animal to prove breed status, presenting an animal as a specific breed, in a breed show, that is not of the same species is not lying?

I understand what the rules say. I don't have a problem with people doing it, the rules allow for it to happen, but I don't get the justification that you are giving. At least tell it like it really is, you believe you have a better chance of winning a breed show by walking a crossbred in the ring that will get past the judges during classification. That's the bottom line.

Ifinditfunny, too.

As long as everyone knows the rules up front, I guess it's all good.  It's just foreign to me and seems pointless to even have anything showing under any kind of breed name when everyone knows they're crossbred animals.  It's as if someone decided everyone was cheating, so they just made cheating legal instead of fixing the issue.

Unless it was a Jr Nationals or breed specific show I always showed my low % maine and chi animals in the crossbred classes.  That was where the big dogs rolled anyways so you might as well grab the bull by the horns in class and use your final drive fitting efforts on the animals that were actually pure.

 

[DLD]

I think, at least at OYE and Tulsa these days, breed classification is more than anything a tool to keep class sizes smaller. The current size classes fit the ring size and the time allotted for showing steers, and are easier to handle (line up, etc..).  Plus it gives away more blue ribbons.  Like it or not, it's a system that's most likely here to stay. 

I love Sullivan's blog putting up all those pics, it's a good thing to be able to see what's winning not just in our own state but all over.  But face it, it's there in large part 'cause it's good for some of their best customers (the steer jocks - you know, "sold by so and so").  But I do agree, it'd look a whole lot better if they'd at least halfway stick to the story they used to get 'em classified in the first place.

 

[Cattle Cards]

People are getting more and more savvy with social media.  I'm sure they can find someone on the show committee that could monitoring these things.  Facebook, the Pulse, Lautner's Blog, etc.  As soon as someone posts that the Champion Angus steer was sired by Monopoly, go to the exhibitor, family, Ag teacher, etc. and confront them  Strip them of the awards back and disqualify them.  Notify the Reserve that they are in the Champion Drive the next day.  Watch to see if that get's posted.  If so, do it again.  And if it's posted a day or two later, make sure they don't get their check from the sale of Champions.  Do that one or two times and people would get the point really quick.

 

[blackdirt cowboy]

People are getting more and more savvy with social media.  I'm sure they can find someone on the show committee that could monitoring these things.  Facebook, the Pulse, Lautner's Blog, etc.  As soon as someone posts that the Champion Angus steer was sired by Monopoly, go to the exhibitor, family, Ag teacher, etc. and confront them  Strip them of the awards back and disqualify them.  Notify the Reserve that they are in the Champion Drive the next day.  Watch to see if that get's posted.  If so, do it again.  And if it's posted a day or two later, make sure they don't get their check from the sale of Champions.  Do that one or two times and people would get the point really quick.

That's just brutal. These people are, after all, playing by the rules that are currently in place.

 

[zac_norwood]

But those "angus" steers sired by monopoly are not breaking any rules. It doesn't matter what there pedigree is they fit the classification. To me it would seem the real problem is that the guidelines for classifications are a little off. If a monopoly steer ever makes into angus they are not using right guidelines or its a poor monopoly steer..

 

[afhm]

Problems lies within the actual classifiers and the games they choose to play for personal gains, personal vendettas and political motives.  When they classifiers don't like the sire, breeder, exhibitor/family, vat/cea involved with that calf don't want him in for those reasons or they have one they sold that can't beat the said steer how is that any less fair than trying to/showing a Monopoly as a angus? Or how about he can't be in here he's too stout or too good, what a vote of confidence for the quality of your breed. The paper deal won't work too easily falsified, the visual classifying works the best because in most cases you need to be atleast part that breed to have the phenotypical characteristics to get in.  The social media idea won't even attempt to fly, how many times have the same calf been advertised as being out of different sires?  How many ego driven people would say their calf is out of a certain bull just to have their name and picture put on a blog for veryone to see the.  Other than those cattle that have a recognizable color pattern I think a solution to the he's my buddy or enemy so you lead him through or I'll lead him through for you part of the process is to have the classifiers position where they can't see who the calf belongs to and have the student interns lead the calves in front of them.  The classifiers may say they don't want the crosses showing in their breed but many of them are breeding the same crosses as everyone else is.  When the classifiers are very hard on their breed when classifying they obviously must not realize they are hurting their breed and their own pocketbooks and complain they can't sell their own calves. Classing hard may get rid of the counterfits but next year's sale holes are determined on a percentage of the number of steers shown this year.  If there are only 2-3 head per class in the angus that make the sale people aren't going to very motivated to go out and buy a angus to feed for a whole year to be kicked into the aobs.  The guidelines for what gets in or doesn't needs updating, for instance in the herefords there are many cattle in the bull and female shows that would never classify because of their color patterns yet they are purebred and have papers

 

[librarian]

Sounds like the concept cbcr proposed has some tangible merit in terms of deciphering the breed percentages that prevail in the winning phenotype.
With better information, one could at least teach to the test.
There are a million ways to be a purist and most breeds were fine tuned to meet arbitrary visual characteristics. If we are on the way to a composite show breed, then why not be a purist about the type and document the pedigree, whatever it is.
It doesn't have to be forced on the industry as a rule, it could just be a tool for "breed" advancement. It might improve the odds  over gambling on a moving target.
Just how it looks from the outside. Go kids!

 

[Tallcool1]

Personally, I think it is hard for people that are not in Texas to understand this whole thing.  We may show breeds steers up here, but nothing like it is down in the Texas Majors.  Our state fair has 5 Divisions.  Market Heifers, British Breeds, Everything Else split into 3 Divisions.  The end.  The only breed that they actually classify is the Herefords, and all of them have to be papered.

I kind of see it as just a way of grouping "like kind" steers together.  It really isn't about attaching a breed to those steers.  Sort of like doing what they do at the AZ National, and showing them by color.  What I DO NOT understand is getting sent home if you don't pass classification.  I just can't understand why an attempt to show your steer in a group that you believe to be his "like kind" merits disqualification in the event the classification committee does not agree.  If they don't classify then at least let them show as a cross.

I used to get a little sideways with the Social Media posts as well, until someone explained how the deal works and what it is designed to do.  It isn't about what "breed" they supposedly are.  It is about the dominant characteristics that they carry and putting all of those steers together. 

 

[DLD]

I believe that the reason Fort Worth doesn't let you show if you class out is to keep people from trying everything that might accidentally classify. If you could still show cross after you got kicked out, anything with a remote chance to classify in a breed would try, and there's just not enough time to go through all that.  If you know you're not going to get to show once you've been booted, you're not gonna try anything you don't really believe will classify.

I'm just guessing that since Redwine is in OK he was referring to OYE (at least mostly).  My understanding is that in TX it's no questions asked visual classification, by show appointed classifiers.  In OK it's different - the shows defer classifying each breed to it's state breed association, so every breed may have a different requirement.  Angus for example, can be out of any kind of bull but are supposed to be out of a registered Angus cow ( must send in copy of cows papers).  Herefords are just required to be Hereford in appearance.  I don't believe that any breed says the steers have to be purebred, but many do require a registered parent.  We send in this information and pictures along with DNA with our nominations.  The breed association rep reviews the info and pictures and makes a classification decision.  This is what I meant by sticking to the same story that got them classified in the first place.

I know many of you don't agree with the steers (especially the British breeds) not being purebred, but in most county shows in OK, steers show for sale order.  PB Herefords and Angus (and Limi's, Simmi's, etc...) would have no chance showing against the clubbies, so no one would want to feed them for the big shows either.  So there is some incentive for those state breed associations to set requirements that allow their breed to be competitive.

 

[Cattle Cards]

People are getting more and more savvy with social media.  I'm sure they can find someone on the show committee that could monitoring these things.  Facebook, the Pulse, Lautner's Blog, etc.  As soon as someone posts that the Champion Angus steer was sired by Monopoly, go to the exhibitor, family, Ag teacher, etc. and confront them  Strip them of the awards back and disqualify them.  Notify the Reserve that they are in the Champion Drive the next day.  Watch to see if that get's posted.  If so, do it again.  And if it's posted a day or two later, make sure they don't get their check from the sale of Champions.  Do that one or two times and people would get the point really quick.

That's just brutal. These people are, after all, playing by the rules that are currently in place.

You mean that that there are people using the rules to their advantage.  No matter what rules are in place, there will always be people who will go as far as they can and push those rules.  I live in TX now but grew up in WI.  Don't think I don't know shows, rules, etc.  I grew up showing with/against the Cody, Keenes, Griswolds, Retallicks, Suddeths, Weigals, Poad, to name a few.  I know someone who qualified for State Fair with a black/white/brindle steer and won the State Fair with a Black Steer.  Dye, graphite, fake hair, etc. were all common place.  Tubing cattle with beer...Still, steers and heifer showed as Angus, Hereford, Polled Hereford, Charolais, etc. were purebreds.  Even the Continental breeds were 3/4 or higher and sired by a PB bull of that breed.  If not, they showed as Crossbreds.  I don't even remember Chi or Maine's having a breed in steer division.  I just think that to represent a breed, your steer should be sired by a bull of that breed.

 

[ifinditfunny]

I just think that to represent a breed, you should be sired by a bull of that breed.

Then when you start a show you can make that a rule.

 

[aj]

I keep thinking that some night I will turn on the tube.......and 60 minutes will have a hour long program on how screwed up the club calf deal is. Airing.......drugs for the cattle......booze for us exibitors......genetic defect matings and whatnot.

 

[Cattle Cards]

I just think that to represent a breed, you should be sired by a bull of that breed.

Then when you start a show you can make that a rule.

Sorry that my thought got ahead of my typing on that one.  That "...you should be sired by a bull of that breed". Which since you so kindly pointed out, I corrected the comment

Secondly, I do run my own show.  Quite successfully.  It's a benefit for MS.  And in our first 3 years, beside giving nice awards, participation gifts and pay for the show, it has raised over $20,000 for the National MS Society.  As it's a sanctioned by the TJLA then I follow their rules...

 

[ZNT]

First off, I think many of these breed associations are missing the revenue boat by not pushing the Majors to require breed steers to have registration papers.  They may not be legit, and they may not guarantee a calf classifying, but someone is spending the $15 to register that steer, plus any other registrations and transfers they are being paid to get that steer registered. 

Secondly, many of these breeds associations are not that concerned that the champions of "their" breed are not really what they are.  If a MAB steer that classifies as a Shorthorn goes and wins the whole dang show, then the Shorthorn breed can run with that for advertising their breed can compete with the crossbreeds.  The general population in the cattle industry are never going to know that the steer wasn't really a "Shorthorn", but they will sure think about using that breed in their herd.

It all is a frustrating system here in Texas, but it works well enough, especially for the number of entries they have to process at each Major.  I always used to laugh at the color system the West Coast used to classify, but now it almost looks like they were ahead of the curve, rather than behind it.  Simple, yet effective. Classifying by color would sure eliminate the bias's that some classifiers have in their decision making.

 

[Telos]

Couldn't agree with you more ZNT. The color system is simple and it works not only in the show ring but in the real beef world. To me it's the only way to divide these classes fairly without any bias.