steer sickness question

[red]

Good points Chambero! Hadn't thought of that but I'm curious like Farmboy on what the final diagnosis was.

Red

 

[milkmaid56]

the final diagnosis was either urolithiasis or he had an injury from the hoof trimming.  the first one is caused by too much calcium in the feed but it wouldnt affect the meat... and my family is going to eat it so if the meat isnt good it wont affect anyone except us.  and there isnt really any medicine cure all... and i cant afford to have a vet do surgery to find out what is the matter for sure.  chambero apparently you dont have money issues because a cow that is old and not producing should go to the sale, what do you most the hamburger in the grocery stores is?  im sorry if im sounding mean or harsh but i have a college education to pay for and i at least want to be able to break even on the steer.

 

[red]

I think what chambero is saying is that if you didn't know what was wrong w/ the calf & he was sick it sometimes best not to butcher it for meat. If it was because of an injury or something you knew wouldn't be passed through the meat it should be alright.
I'm sure from stories of his father-in-law they are a very furgal group too.

Red

 

[knabe]

interesting about the urolithiasis.  since this wasn't verified probably, nonetheless it is still interesting.  still interested in what people think of all the possible excessive addtitives/minerals that are possible to accumulate and what problems might occur.  my uncle had one well for some cows, and those cows got kidney problems as opposed to his other cows.  pipe in from the other well after that.  verified the well had some sort of salt problem, i can't remember. 

i always wondered about those tilting hoof trimming tables, the way they make the bellies stick out when they are strapped in.  that's why i started lifting all my calves feet so i can do it similar to how a farrier does a horse.  it works.  also makes them super sensitive to lifting their feet for positioning without fussing while standing as some seem to do.  i wouldn't try it on older animals as they don't flex and relax very good for access to trimming unless handled more than i have time for.

 

[red]

our nephew lost a show steer after trimming it's hooves on the table. It was about 2 weeks before the county fair he weighed 1300 pounds. Tough loss after all that time & so close.
DL or anyone- what would have been some of the complications caused by the table? He didn't have any swelling but sounded a lot like MilkMaid's calf.

Red

 

[shortyjock89]

our nephew lost a show steer after trimming it's hooves on the table. It was about 2 weeks before the county fair he weighed 1300 pounds. Tough loss after all that time & so close.
DL or anyone- what would have been some of the complications caused by the table? He didn't have any swelling but sounded a lot like MilkMaid's calf.

Red

Just a guess...and if he didn't have anything funky going on with his urination, I would say a twisted gut perhaps.  I've heard of it happening before.  We had a cow that was lethargic and wouldnt eat for a couple days, but it was the first time she had her hooves trimmed since we had her. It turned out to be just stress.  But in both your case, I suspect a twisted gut.

 

[DL]

This is by no means the final word - but it is the DL word! Diagnosis based on description by owner -
#1 calculi in urethra (ie stone in tube from bladder out) - clearly if you imagine a jagged little stone traversing your urethra (I can see all you guys crossing your legs now) - that has got to hurt (OUCH). Why do I think that a stone is the likely diagnosis?  dribbling urine (ie blockage, not total) and kicking at belly (pain) and it is fairly common in show steers (horses are more common than zebras). Yes mm58 is correct the treatment is surgery and the steers show career is likely over. In this instance there may be a build up of "BUN and creatinine" - depending on the degree of renal (kidney) failure (if any) and a change in electrolytes - so the meat might have an odd flavor because of that (but heck sharks meat is incredibly high in urea and people eat it  ;D) - there really isn't any reason I can see not to eat the meat

#2 some bad very bad gastrointestinal problem - cecal torsion, twisted gut etc - why could it be - pain - these are painful things; it is less likely because (a) he was dribbling urine (points to #!) and (b) he didn't get worse. In this case the big ugly purple/black organ should be readily visible when you slaughter him - there would be the risk that the calf was septic from this type of insult (ie bacteria in the blood stream) but unless it was going to be eaten raw it shouldn't be an issue (food safety - wash your hands cook your food)

Those would be my differentials in this situation - I however respectfully whole heartedly disagree with chambero re killing the calf - this is also a welfare issue - this calf was in pain - there are only 2 choices here - fix him or kill him. IMO antibiotics are not incdicated - we have absolutely no evidence of infection. The withhold on Draxxin is 18 days - that is way too long to leave a calf suffer. (and this actually brings up one of my other pet peeves....letting cows die in the field....another post...)

Re tables - we have a hydraulic table at the U - tilts 'em 90 degrees - because things can "float around" and cattle don't really like it - it is generally not recommended to use in on long pregnant cows - but I really think the risk (or some big gastrointestinal problem, twisted stomach etc) is pretty low with most bovines. Given the number that are trimmed the number of problems are pretty small. I have seen calves that broke legs when a strap on the manual tilt tables broke - I guess the ideal would be to have calves that don't need to be trimmed or teach them to hold their feet up  ;D (cow)

 

[farmboy]

I'VE NEVER HAD A CALF TRIMMED

 

[Jill]

my dad just talked to a vet and he said that we could try and put the steer on all hay and sulpha boluses and it MIGHT get better but then i wouldnt be able to sell him for meat any time soon.  the other option is that he is butchered asap.  i chose to butcher him today.  that really sucks, he was my showmanship calf :'(  at least i have a couple other steers to show... but they arent the same as this one.

I tell you what, we are in the same boat and I can really feel for you.  Sunday my sons steer got his head caught in a panel, not sure for how long, but he ended up having something called chute shock and never got back up.  We hauled him to the butcher yesterday,  he was one we had raised and couldn't see wasting a 1200 pound steer on the off chance he might or might not come out of it, it was a sad day at the Allen household I can tell you for sure.

 

[DL]

my dad just talked to a vet and he said that we could try and put the steer on all hay and sulpha boluses and it MIGHT get better but then i wouldnt be able to sell him for meat any time soon.  the other option is that he is butchered asap.  i chose to butcher him today.  that really sucks, he was my showmanship calf :'(  at least i have a couple other steers to show... but they arent the same as this one.

I tell you what, we are in the same boat and I can really feel for you.  Sunday my sons steer got his head caught in a panel, not sure for how long, but he ended up having something called chute shock and never got back up.  We hauled him to the butcher yesterday,  he was one we had raised and couldn't see wasting a 1200 pound steer on the off chance he might or might not come out of it, it was a sad day at the Allen household I can tell you for sure.

Jill - sorry for the sad day for the Allens - it is sure a good thing that the bouncing babies make up for a lot of the dark days...dl

 

[chambero]

Not sure how I got myself in "trouble" on this one, but I guess I did.  Allow me to try to wiggle out of it.

I merely advised caution about eating a "sick" animal.  I used an example of my own where we did eat one when it was known to be an injury.

I wasn't advising exploratory surgery - I have never seen a cow or calf do any good after being cut on.

Our policy is we don't sell our sick or immobile cattle.  That is a very different case than selling old cows that have quit producing.  We start checking teeth annually on our cows at about ten years of age.  The first time we catch them smooth-mouthed, we might run them one more year if they are heavy bred and had a "good" calf (i.e. of normal weaning weight) the year before.  In all cases - missing a calf twice at any age or once at an advanced age = trip to the sale barn.  We don't have a pasture full of grandmas without babies running around waiting to die.

If one gets crippled to the point she can't get in a trailer by herself or we don't think she'll make the trip to the sale barn, we address the issue ourselves.  We don't sell or eat our "downers".  There might be one or two of these a year if that.  We don't just let them stay out and suffer in the pasture, but I don't believe its good to moving those animals around.  The $50-$100 salvage value isn't worth the stress on the animal or us.  Often this comes into play with bulls. Several years ago, we had one break BOTH back legs fighting.  He was put down.  Other bulls are dealt with if something has happened to them and they can't be gotten up easily.  However, when they get old and start losing weight, go sterile, etc. - they head to the sale barn.

Didn't mean to offend or insult one.  I'm just squeamish about folks eating potentially sick animals - especially feeding it to my own family.

 

[milkmaid56]

thanks for clearing that up chambero!  my family too doesnt sell the downers or sick ones... just got a misscommunication or something   this is the first steer that had his feet trimmed out of my eight years of showing... and the funny thing is i was thinking about taking my expensive really nice steer just to get a light trim, but decided against it because i didnt want a freak accident to happen... this is definetly the last steer i take to get hooves trimmed.

 

[chambero]

In regards to hoof trimming, I bet that wasn't the problem.  I'm sure injuries could happen, but every steer I've been associated with since I started showing in 1986 has been trimmed every six weeks and I've never had one have a problem.  I'm sure its possible, but unlilely.  I don't personally know anyone that has had trouble.  Show calves kept in stalls just don't get to walk enough to keep their hooves worn down.  In Texas, you couldn't by with showing one with long hooves.  Your risks of getting a calf hurt are much greater with many of the other daily things we do to show calves.

Sorry for the tough luck.  It just happens unfortunately - usually to the good ones or "nice" ones.  You can't kill the ornery ones if you try.  I had a very, very good Hereford steer my junior year in high school.  I got called out of class the week before his termainal show to get informed he died of bloat that morning after feeding.  Had never bloated a day in his life before.  Another year, the feed mill we used (emphasis on used) had a bad load of corn.  We lost five calves in a day and a half and some friends another town lost two more.  The feed mill refused to help compensate our loss.  We could have pushed it via the legal system, but decided it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

 

[DL]

Hey chambero - I see you are vying for the silver tongue award again - and high on the list of contenders - thanks for clearing that up - dl

 

[Jill]

I agree with Chambero, yes strange things do happen, but we trim 2 times during the show season and have for the last 15 years and have never had any problems.  Generally speaking, if you are not trimming, your calves are not walking correctly, the only thing our guy advises against is not trimming the heavy bred cows.

 

[red]

We've always trimmed & never had a problem until the nephew's. Never had a problem after that either. I think something else was wrong w/ the steer. A good trimming job can do wonders for bad feet.

Really sorry about the steer Jill.

Red

 

[Clubcalfshowgirl]

thanks for clearing that up chambero!  my family too doesnt sell the downers or sick ones... just got a misscommunication or something   this is the first steer that had his feet trimmed out of my eight years of showing... and the funny thing is i was thinking about taking my expensive really nice steer just to get a light trim, but decided against it because i didnt want a freak accident to happen... this is definetly the last steer i take to get hooves trimmed.



EVERY YEAR i show i have had my steers and heifers hoof's trimmed NEVER had any problem this is the 1st that i have EVER heard of problems with the hoof triming, ya they MIGHT back off feed for a day but thats as far as its EVER gone.