Strange Scenario...

[Ms Ray]

has she developed an udder now after the calf came?  and how big was the calf?

 

[DL]

Well the mystery has been solved. She was checked at 2:30 am and was showing no signs and at 6:30 had feet and head. One leg was a little further back and she didnt have a whole lot of room. She was taken to the vet clinic, inticipating a C-Section, but she ended up not needing one, once they got the one leg pulled forward. Unfortunately, it was too late for the calf, he was already filled with fluid. He did show signs he was alive, but lungs were already full. The heifer is ok, I guess the next question is whether to send her on down the road, seeing that she will probably not be the best milker and have calving difficulty. It will be a hard thing to do!

The vet said that sometimes they do just not stretch out like they need to or develop an udder. She got the calf as far as she could get it but due to not being stretched at all, she just gave up.

I hate it when that happens. I don't know if you gave the genetics of the heifer, her age or the sire of the calf - but just because a heifer has a problem doesn't mean she cannot be a good cow - she may never have difficulty again. If you are worried about pelvic size have her pelvic measured - if she has a reasonable size per age and you like her give her another chance - IMHO something was weird about this whole scenario and I think the weirdness is the calf not the heifer - ie the signal to begin labor is the calf releasing cortisol - clearly he never did that  - it is unusual for an cow induced as you did not to calve within 48 hours - usually as you mentioned at 36

 

[cowcrazy]

We had the exact same scenario with one of our cows. She was AI'd and preg checked bred. Never exposed to a bull. She went 14 days over her due date. At 10 days the vet palpated and could not even feel the calf it was so far up. Could not detect a heartbeat. All but told us the calf was dead. We induced and she had a live bull calf, but it was almost like it was premature. It had breathing problems, the hair on it's face was very sparse and it's hooves were peeling. It was very weak so we tube fed it some colostrum, but it did not make it 24 hours. In retrospect, I am not sure if we should have induced the cow, or just waited for mother nature to do her thing. Sorry for your loss...

 

[kfacres]

We had the exact same scenario with one of our cows. She was AI'd and preg checked bred. Never exposed to a bull. She went 14 days over her due date. At 10 days the vet palpated and could not even feel the calf it was so far up. Could not detect a heartbeat. All but told us the calf was dead. We induced and she had a live bull calf, but it was almost like it was premature. It had breathing problems, the hair on it's face was very sparse and it's hooves were peeling. It was very weak so we tube fed it some colostrum, but it did not make it 24 hours. In retrospect, I am not sure if we should have induced the cow, or just waited for mother nature to do her thing. Sorry for your loss...

happens to me every single time I induce one...

 

[DL]

We had the exact same scenario with one of our cows. She was AI'd and preg checked bred. Never exposed to a bull. She went 14 days over her due date. At 10 days the vet palpated and could not even feel the calf it was so far up. Could not detect a heartbeat. All but told us the calf was dead. We induced and she had a live bull calf, but it was almost like it was premature. It had breathing problems, the hair on it's face was very sparse and it's hooves were peeling. It was very weak so we tube fed it some colostrum, but it did not make it 24 hours. In retrospect, I am not sure if we should have induced the cow, or just waited for mother nature to do her thing. Sorry for your loss...

I think you did the right thing - a full term calf that looks abnormal as you describe probably has other issues - those are the ones that really need to be necropsied (helps with the bovine guilt) - you could have let nature take it's course and had a dead rotten fetus and a sick cow - I think you did the right thing

ps Jody - if it happens to you every time you induce one then there are other issues - induction with dexamethasone mimics the fetal signal for the start of labor - hundreds if not thousands of calves are induced every year without issue

 

[kfacres]

ps Jody - if it happens to you every time you induce one then there are other issues - induction with dexamethasone mimics the fetal signal for the start of labor - hundreds if not thousands of calves are induced every year without issue

I've done about 3 or 4 inductions in my life:  I always think that i know better- and that momma is ready to go based off of a breeding date that i have for her-- when in all reality-- she was a cycle ahead of when she needed to really go and got stuck cleanup.  In 3 of the cases- I remember the momma was starting to prolapse- and I wanted to avoid that, she had milk- so I assumed she'd be ready to go.  I don't remember the 4th case right now; but at the time, I figured I knew what was going on. 

I now follow the rule: if they look ready to pop- give them 2 weeks. (lol)

 

[DL]

I now follow the rule: if they look ready to pop- give them 2 weeks. (lol)

now that is funny  - and they say you don't have a sense of humor - 

ps - I don't recommend inducing unless you have a known and confirmed breeding date - your experience suggests that is good advise

 

[QMC]

"The main question at hand was why a heifer would be showing NO signs of being the slightest bit ready to calve...no swelling of the vulva, no udder, nuthing"

Because she was NOT READY TO CALVE.

Now the heifer may be shipped because she was induced before she began to dialate.
It is assumed she has a small pelvic and no milk.
Did you make any attempt at pulling the calf before loading the cow and going to the vet?  Because if you A.I.ed her to a calving ease bull and both legs and the head where thew the pelvis, odds are very slim a c-section would be needed.

My point is that "Due Dates" and gestation tables are a guide line.  It is not uncommon for calves to come 14 days early on out to 14 days late (which was already stated). I am calling this human error and I feel sorry for the cow if she gets her head cut off.

 

[DCC_Cattle]

"The main question at hand was why a heifer would be showing NO signs of being the slightest bit ready to calve...no swelling of the vulva, no udder, nuthing"

Because she was NOT READY TO CALVE.

Now the heifer may be shipped because she was induced before she began to dialate.
It is assumed she has a small pelvic and no milk.
Did you make any attempt at pulling the calf before loading the cow and going to the vet?  Because if you A.I.ed her to a calving ease bull and both legs and the head where thew the pelvis, odds are very slim a c-section would be needed.

My point is that "Due Dates" and gestation tables are a guide line.  It is not uncommon for calves to come 14 days early on out to 14 days late (which was already stated). I am calling this human error and I feel sorry for the cow if she gets her head cut off.

That may be exactly right, she may have not been ready to calve. However the calf does not stop growing at the due date. Yes, we did attempt to pull the calf before the heifer was taken to the vet. She was so tight we could not get a rope on the second leg. The vet said the right actions were taken. We did what we thought needed to be done. Nothing says for sure this heifer is leaving and if she does, it won't be an easy choice. Seeing what she had to go through ( a very hard pull) that wouldn't be fair to make her go through that again. That will be decided later on. With past experiences we've had them do just fine the next year and also had them have trouble again. We shall see!!!!

After calving, her udder was fuller, but still there was hardly anything there. She sure has some swelling now but is doing great. Calf was 80#.

 

[cowcrazy]

Just a note to my above post. The cow I was talking about never did bag up or dialate.  We did keep her and she had a perfectly normal heifer calf the following year.

 

[kfacres]

most every time, they do not dilate right when induced... or milk... why?? they weren't ready to calve..

So I guess the real question is? how big was this calf that you cut out--= don't think that's ever been said?  Anything under 80 lb would make it seem even more human error- and shoulda waited.

 

[linnettejane]

"The main question at hand was why a heifer would be showing NO signs of being the slightest bit ready to calve...no swelling of the vulva, no udder, nuthing"

Because she was NOT READY TO CALVE.

Now the heifer may be shipped because she was induced before she began to dialate.
It is assumed she has a small pelvic and no milk.
Did you make any attempt at pulling the calf before loading the cow and going to the vet?  Because if you A.I.ed her to a calving ease bull and both legs and the head where thew the pelvis, odds are very slim a c-section would be needed.

My point is that "Due Dates" and gestation tables are a guide line.  It is not uncommon for calves to come 14 days early on out to 14 days late (which was already stated). I am calling this human error and I feel sorry for the cow if she gets her head cut off.

That may be exactly right, she may have not been ready to calve. However the calf does not stop growing at the due date. Yes, we did attempt to pull the calf before the heifer was taken to the vet. She was so tight we could not get a rope on the second leg. The vet said the right actions were taken. We did what we thought needed to be done. Nothing says for sure this heifer is leaving and if she does, it won't be an easy choice. Seeing what she had to go through ( a very hard pull) that wouldn't be fair to make her go through that again. That will be decided later on. With past experiences we've had them do just fine the next year and also had them have trouble again. We shall see!!!!

After calving, her udder was fuller, but still there was hardly anything there. She sure has some swelling now but is doing great. Calf was 80#.

looks like a weight right there ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->.......^

 

[justintime]

I guess I have been doing a bit of head scratching while reading this thread. Maybe I'm old school, but I am a very big believer in letting mother nature have control in issues like this. There is possibly a situation where inducing birth is recommended, but right now, I can't think of one. I have never.... and will never... induce a female no matter how far she is off her due date. I don't care if she was never exposed to a bull after an AI breeding, let nature take its course.

I also think there are a few vets out there who are a bit trigger happy when it comes to inducing females as well. Many years ago, I helped calve out a leading herd of Simmentals at that time, and because of the value of each calf, their vet suggested that they calve on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and he would stay at the farm both days so he would be able to assist any births that needed it. Cows and heifers were all induced, and probably over 90 % of these calved on those days. It was an absolute disaster and a real mess. More C- sections were done than needed to be,  well over 1/2 of the cows had retained placentas, and there were lots of complications later in breeding season, and some cows never did rebreed. It turned out to be a very expensive idea.

I truly hope the heifer in this case will be Ok. If she had been mine, I would have walked to the barn a thousand times to check her before I would ever have messed with Mother Nature.

Another question that enters my mind every time I hear of someone inducing birth is what is the actual BW that is reported on the calf? If a female is induced and calves 4 days earlier than she would have naturally, should a 80 lb calf be reported as 80 lbs or should it actually be another 10 or more pounds heavier ( estimating 2.5 lbs/ day growth in the last stages of gestation).

My recommendation.... LEAVE MOTHER NATURE ALONE! 

 

[mooch]

Livestock do not live by rules. People want to apply cold hard facts and rules to Mother Nature and she rejects them.The older you get the more you realize that most every situation is different.Different maturity levels, different hormone levels, different reactions to meds. Alll you can do is prepare and hope for the best and make judgement calls based on what you know.

 

[OH Breeder]

You did what your VET advised. You trust your vet and you know your vet. WE DO NOT. There is always alot of shoulda, coulda's and woulda's. You can't beat yourself up after the fact you trusted a professional and took her to once of the best centers we have in this part of the state.
Inductions- everyone has an opinion on them. I have had more issues NOT inducing then inducing. If I had induced last year, I would not have lost a calf that was 22 days over due. TO each their own. I have also done elective C-sections because of calf size. We have never had ANY issues with re-breeding after c-sections and inductions. I am thankful this has been our experience.
I wouldn't hold it against the heifer at all.

 

[DCC_Cattle]

most every time, they do not dilate right when induced... or milk... why?? they weren't ready to calve..

So I guess the real question is? how big was this calf that you cut out--= don't think that's ever been said?  Anything under 80 lb would make it seem even more human error- and shoulda waited.

There was a weight listed right in my last post. Also, if you did read, a C-Section was NOT done. Might want to read it over again before posting when the information was right in front of you. I will say one last time, we did what we thought needed to be done. She is a smaller heifer and it was either take a chance now, or let her go and let the calf keep growing and run into problems that way. We know our cows pretty well and they are checked numerous times a day and night. I would say that if we let this heifer go on her own, it would be a month and she would still have showed no signs. This was a bump in the road, but you just have to move on. We've got a lot more cows to go. Think what you want.

 

[kfacres]

we did what we thought needed to be done. 

then drop it- end of discussion, forget it.

 

[ShowmanQ]

we did what we thought needed to be done. 

then drop it- end of discussion, forget it.

Always need the last word donkey?