Structural issues- comments welcomed

[knabe]

my neighbor is an equine therapist/farrier or is that farrier/therapist.  anyway, as some of you may know, horses are mostly one sided, unless they are trained otherwise.  some say it starts with which way they tilt their head when they nurse.  anyway, he was over looking at the steer we are about to butcher, and he's getting tight.  he immediately zeroed in on his shoulder and started pressing.  the steer, which isn't that acclimated to strangers kinda got bothered and moved off.  kept trying this over and over for fun till he started liking it.  then we started watching him walk and how his hind feet didn't go to the same distance forward, which would make him walk with an arc.  so we started pressing over his loin.  then he started stretching.  he works on my horse every time he shoes her particularly her right scapula till she gets square and drops her head similar to a chiropracter.  totally funny to watch on the steer.  after he was done, the steer started running around and hopping.  kinda funny seeing that big tub moving like that.

question, i'm trying to feed him to prime per customer orders.  any insights on how much longer to feed.  i hear some recent comments on how soft/hard the fat should feel.  any other comments, like cod/brisket fill, tailhead?  this is not a show animal, he's "labeled" free range, no hormones stimulants with free access to pasture.  or post a picture?

 

[DLD]

Red, she does look pretty straight. Obviously she could have navel ill or some sort of infection - try treating for that. But I'm with frostback on this one - give her a little time, she might come out of it. If we get one like that, they get bose and penn, but I've seen 'em get better without treatment, too. It seems like if shows up early it can get better and they can be  reasonably sound as they get older, but if it shows up after the first couple of weeks it usually never gets better.

from Telos-
My question of the week... Have breeders been irresponsible in allowing these structural defects to be propagated and if so, why?

Telos, that's a good question. I'd have to say that many breeders have knowingly propagated these traits for a long time. A number of the popular A.I. sires for many years have been crippled by the time they were mature, yet they've continued to sell semen - lots of semen in many cases. Why? Because that's the kind that was winning in the showring - and not just the steer shows, or junior heifer shows, but in all classes and breeds, at all levels. Even people who profess not to be breeding for the showring very often choose straighter legged cattle because it's the "ideal" that we've lived with for so long. Thankfully, the showring is slowly but surely becoming more critical of overly straight cattle, but it'll take forever to filter out the genetics of some of those crippled cattle.

Even now, you'll find alot of people that'll argue with you that a 1300# steer that can get around the showring is sound enough... Those same people will try to tell you that even if that crippled steer wins a major show somewhere, that it has no impact on the soundness of future cattle - I call bulls@#t on that one. There'll always be somebody (lots of somebodies, actually) trying to raise another one just like him, and more than willing to use his brothers and sisters as well as his ancestors to do it.

I guess that's my pet peeve. I can't stand cattle that are too straight, nor judges that use 'em. I can't condem anyone for breeding one - we get 'em occasionaly, too. But I do everything I can to avoid it. Got one this spring 3/4 Angus, 1/4 Simmy - not even "show ring bred" on either side... It just happens.

 

[red]

update on calf. Picture looks better than she is. She's hardly able to walk. Front legs keep buckling under her.  If no improvement by Monday will put out of misery. Hate to see something suffer.

 

[jnm]

"If no improvement by Monday will put out of misery. Hate to see something suffer".  I wouldn't be in a hurry. I had an April calf that had similar problems with front legs. It would trip as it tried to walk. Now I wouldn't know which one it was without looking at ear tag #.

 

[red]

well, her legs shake when she stands on them. We'll just have to see. I just can't stand to see it myself. I hope for the best still.

Red

 

[ROAD WARRIOR]

Red - I won't jump the gun ( or for the gun) just yet. Unless the calf is getting progressively worse day after day. It may never be "right" but it may be salvagable and make good beef steak later on. I've seen calves like yours that could barely get around on what appeared to be under developed front knee joints at my neighbors. After a bout two weeks MOST of them gradually got better and by weaning time they were good enough to go into the lot. Not show steer quality but good enough to eat.

 

[DL]

DLD - great comments as always

Telos - you too!

Re this specific calf - she barely walks, she buckles over at the knees, she isn't getting bette, she appears to be in pain or at least uncomfortable  and we DO NOT want  put her out of her misery on Monday why?? Where is the balance between "saving her for slaughter" and allowing her to suffer??

 

[Joe Boy]

Red,
We are really sorry for your little wreck.

A month ago I had a big bull calf born from a PB cow and my youngest PB bull.  I got 5 calves in a row over a hundred lbs. from the bull and this calf was a big bull.  I had to put them in the lot as the mother got tired of him not following him and letting him nurse.  I caught them and he has done well.  He cannot run well, as one leg trips him and the cow leaves him behind and he wonders, but he has gotten better.  If the calf is getting worse and seems to be in pain, bless you heart on your decision.  I have never had a calf like this before, but did have lambs and I braced their legs with cpvc pipe and horse leg wrap.  At market time we could not tell the difference except the ear tag.  I cannot say that would work with heavy meat-ed calves.  I know I was upset with my calf and I share your pain.  Best wishes.

 

[red]

Thanks JoeBoy, I just hate to see anything in pain. Her knees seem little better this morning. She's really running around the pen & very lively. We're going to give her another shot & see how she does. I just know she's not going to be a show calf or brood cow material but if she can make it we'll get her to the feedlot.

Red

 

[red]

Thank you somuch Terry! Love talking to you on the phone. I just checked her & she's not trembling anymore. Will give her some time.

Thanks again!

Red

 

[OH Breeder]

Red,
I had a WMW cow and a calf out of Heat Seeker last year that threw a great bull calf. But for the first two weeks he was buck knee'd. I gave him B-12 and treated him with a round of antibiotics. I also gave him small dose of bantimine and he came out of it. He would stand and you could watch his knees get tired and he would lay down. I am not sure what changed, but after a few days of treatment he seem to respond. He is going to be a fat steer for neighboring county this year.

 

[kanshow]

We see this occasionally in our commercial cow herd.  It's like the tendons are contracted or something.  Like most say, we usually leave them alone and in a few weeks, you can't tell which ones were like that.  We have splinted them if we think it will aid them in getting around but usually that is when the pasterns are affected.  If she is active and not in pain,  I'd agree with all those who said 'wait & see'. 

Keep us updated!

 

[red]

Yea!!! (clapping)
She's much better.  Will never be a grand champion but at least she up & running around. Thanks to all for the advice, especially Cowboy/Terry. We will give her another PCN shot tomorrow.
Note to anyone that has a calf w/ swollen kness. Check for navel infection first. My hubby is eating his words now!

Red

 

[Gypsy]

Yahoo!  ;D  Thanks Red for the demonstation of what is sooo great about Steer Planet.  What an awesome way to share what you know and learn!  Thanks to you and Cowboy.  (clapping)

 

[red]

Gypsy- I learned a very valuable leasson. I was assuming that because she had no temperature she didn't have an infection. Cowboy explained to me that most calves have some form of navel infection. It might not show up unless they have structural problems to begin with. In her case, she's very straight on the back legs. It was a great lesson & one I wanted to pass on to others.

Red