TH and PHA in correlation with quality

[knabe]

heifer #1

 

[aj]

Dang knabe you out did me. ;D

 

[qbcattle]

wow this has escalated! lol

idk about all these comments hatin on texas tho!

I have been thinking about this and found a new and inproved way to type out my point of view on the situation.. ..

We can all agree that the two genetic disorders carry heavy negative effects. So I have been trying to figure out why these genetics have been lingering instead of being eradicated like ones in history. I realise that some industries see it to be an edge while others view it as a burden. I am by no means trying to say that there needs to be a movement to eradicate this but theoretically if it were eradicated i beleve that the commercial, purebred, and club calf breeders alike would benefit. For i think that breeding options would open up greatly, i think its likely that quality would improve at a more rapid pacel, and for the club calf industry with or without TH or PHA a winner is still going to be selected regardless.(meaning there is still going to be bulls in the industry that excell and make money for you) This eradication is something that may never be done, and i have no rt to say that it should or should not even be a consideration. But i do find it ironic that an industry relies so heavily on a disorder for its success.

Again JMO and i know this thread may be gettin old to some of you but i was out the past couple of days and wanted to throw my two cents in.

 

[knabe]

c'mon gang.  no guesses on the heifers?

 

[aj]

I was jotting down my thoughts on my okie computer(big chief tablet and a pencil).Texas is a cool state.Swamps in the east and desert in the west.By the way an okie told me the joke. As a great man once told me" This is gods country slow down and don't drive like hell".

 

[farwest]

Ditto to frostback about the last 2 cents.  Knabe where are the 2 hfrs, is my computer not showing them.  qbcattle,  genetic defects imo have been eradicated in history because of falling in lines and breeds of cattle that the seedstock industry relied on as well as the commercial inldustry.  The club calf industry wasn't huge in some of these breeds that had these defects.  A dead calf because of a defect for a commercial man that sells 500 dollar calves every year is not very popular.  So, these seedstock producers work within the breed to get rid of the defect to survive becuse the end user of their product, the commercial man is gonna quit buying.  Not true all in the club calf business where huge premiums are paid for pheotype,  One dead, another worth 5 to 10 k.  Agree with it or not.  The end user is the family with the phenotype in the ring, n they don't care.  So it survives.  Do these defects do a small part for creating a plus for the economy. Does Dr. Beever wish hed never saw a defect calf?  Does Al Gore wish global warming doesn't exist?  Per this thread, seems some are on a power trip every post they make, some i sense are on the outside looking in, maybe jealous of the industry, and then those who want to manage a defect and make a buck or a living off of an industry that isn't going away and are happy doin it.

 

[RSC]

Good post farwest!  Thanks to Dr Beaver and others for developing the test,  with this technology I can manage the defects!  Using a TH positive bull to get a premium IMO is similar to planting Tripple stacked corn in my cornfield(if I was a crop farmer)!  Can I afford to give up 30-50 bushel per acre even if I am not fond of altering genetics?  If I choose to be in the Club Calf business, can I afford to not use the Negative bulls if I feel there is a good premium for their offspring?

Tony

 

[aj]

Well put. There is a difference between the show ring,club calves, and commercial people. It just irks me when some showring guy starts a speech about what the beef industry needs when their own purebred cattle wouldn't stand up in those conditions. Don't tell the commercial what he needs. Ask them what they need. They don't need 1900# cows and 115# birth weight calves. There is always a disconnect btween the purebred guy and halter cattle. Back in the 50's and 60's the "purebred guy raised the little belt buckle cattle and the commercial guys didn't ned them. Yet some "leader in the industry" decided we needed these wastefull poor growing cattle so all the "purebred" people started raising these type of cattle and slapping each other on the backspouting "This is what the industry needs". The club calf deal could stand on its own I think without one commercial cow in the world. Just call a spade a spade. Unless the federal government "bans" defects they won't be eliminated. Just don't explain to me how defects are okay for the commercial industry.Defects are bad period. If they are a nessecary deal for club calves I guess thats okay. Alot of kids in the youth projects aren't going to be involved with with agriculture in the future. The normal family doesn't have a milk cow in their back yard like 100 years ago. I just hate to see kids taught that "terminal defects are good". They aren't good.

 

[aj]

Frostback...if I make it out to Denver I'll give you a big hug....unless you kick me in the forked end first. (thumbsup)

 

[chambero]

Part of the problem here is the whole TH/PHA issue has only been in the light  for a relatively short time.  When did the TH test first become available - 2 or 3 years ago - I forget which.  PHA a little later than that. 

There really hasn't been time in the steer produving business to start widespread breeding for clean cattle and then get bull from those matings into the "proven" category.  Let's see - nine months gestation - two more years till a bull is really ready to be heavily collected/used, another nine months, and then another 1.5 years till steers from the first "direction change" could win a show of real note. 

It'll happen and then people will drop the carrier bulls in a hurry.  Especially if judges will start adjusting their preferences a little and pick very slightly taller steers. 

 

[GoWyo]

I kind of look at club calves like a hobby, which cattle in general are for us.  However, we have the commercial cows that pay the overhead and are potential recips in case we get more serious.  Then we have a few purebred Angus, mostly as a hobby, but working hard on the quality of the cows and maybe it will become something.  Then there are my kid's show heifers.  Our goal is to stay absolutely clean with them.  However, the club calf thing is like the farmer who uses his regular tractor for farming and then has his super modified competitive pulling tractor for fun.  Regular tractor doesn't compete in the pulls and the pulling tractor doesn't get used for farming because neither are suited for the other's job.  Club calves are fun and they can make some people a living, but for the most part, they won't do what the commercial cattle do, which is pay the bills on commercial cattle outfits any more than a run of the mill commercial steer is going to win a steer show.

 

[aj]

Exactly. However picture this scenario. You're setting in the stands at the national western watching the big steer show with your city cousin. The judge comes on the mike"Before I slap the champ steer I would like a hand for all the exibitors. This barn is filled with cattle the industry needs. Great cattle,great people, the industry is in great hands for future". If every single calf in the barn is loaded with genetic defects....how can a judge say that? How can they intellectually honestly say that with a straight face. So is it a cattle show or more like a rabbit or lama show. Isn't it more like a dancing bear or dog and pony show. Its 100% apart from the beef industry. It makes me shudder alittle I guess. Its almost like we shouldn't butcher the animal for meat but instead stuff every one of the animals and mount them in the living room. I just wish there was someway to can the defect deal.

 

[CAB]

(clapping) (clapping), Farwest, RSC, Chambero,& GoWyo, those last posts of your's are very good concerning this topic.
 
 I've been telling new 4-H parents not to screw up their commercial cow herd by breeding for a show steer. It's cheaper,easier, & faster to go out & buy one or two. I've seen more than one herd of good cows ruined trying to shoot for that "one", possibly my own group of cows included.  I also think that to be competitive in most showrings consistently that you will have to use or buy calves out of these"clubbie" bulls. Oh you will run into a rare judge that will have the kahunas to pick totally away from the traditional picks but by & large most PPL that are into the showring will see the cattle types that win similarly.

 

[Chap]

I have been lurking on this topic for a couple of days and my thoughts are fairly simple.  The reason that the defects are still prominent and will continue to be is that there is a TEST!  Before a conclusive test was made available all cattle were potential suspects and most (not all) would stay away from defect carriers.  I was on that band wagon when i first heard of Th and again with PHA.  I have since made the decision to test and breed accordingly, testing each generation of potential carriers.  Spider Gene in Sheep and Stress Gene in hogs have had the same impact on their respective species.  We can manage herds with information and technology.  Years ago we simply had fewer tools at our disposal and as a result, motivated by self preservation, bred away from potential problems.  Today we breed away from those same econimically destructive problems but instead of throwing out the entire suspect gene pool, we use the science and technology at our disposal to help us.
Chap

 

[knabe]

The reason that the defects are still prominent and will continue to be is that there is a TEST! 
Chap

i would disagree a little on that.  people used draft pick and were in denial he could be the culprit.  people thought epinal was the culprit and not paramount.  people would still be using draft pick a lot.  people would still be using ice pick, irish whiskey and would be in denial and saying it was the bulls' fault and not their cow and vice versa.  people (some, some are still just in denial what that is) have learned what a recessive gene is and won't use carriers for anything other than club calf genetics, so in my estimation, which of course no one can actually count, is that there are less carriers now that there is a test.  some won't use irish whiskey for flushes due to the cost of the carriers.  for the clubbies, they will always use the carriers and will eventually lose out on selling females (in my opinion), since fewer will want the carrier females for breeding and will use the carrier bulls. 

 

[CAB]

 I've been thinking about all of the effort that was made to rid the bovine population of the dwarfism gene in the 50 &60s to then walk through the cattle shows & look @ all of the "miniature" breeds of cattle. Do we really need the "miniatures"? Some PPL would feel strongly that yes we need the miniature breeds of cattle.  Maybe if we kill the defects, 50 years from now I can sell some semen out of my old tanks. More than likely though I'll be dead. What a treasure I'll have in my tanks though. Suppose anyone will have kept the nitrogen level @ a safe level?

  Chap, I'm with you. I was more scared b4 the test to breed carriers by far. That's why the test is a catch 22 situation in my mind. The test lets us manage what was b4 unmanageable without fatalities.

  Shortdawg, collect your bull. I want to order a future treasure please. Brent

 

[GoWyo]

How about this question?  Managed breeding of carriers requires one parent or the other be clean unless the breeder likes potential disasters.  Is there a difference in that "look" for "dirty bull" x "clean cow" versus "clean bull" x "dirty cow"?  Our personal philosophy for the kid's show heifers and ex-show heifers is to keep them clean so the options are open and to sell or make meat out of any carrier females, so I guess it doesn't matter for us, but what are opinions on this question?

 

[aj]

Good question. The bad thing about the testing deal the commercial cow guy can't. He would have to test for curly calf,th,pha,dwarfism,fawn calf on and on. If this stuff bleeds over in this gene population you have such a monumental disaster. Cows get traded through sale barns. It is much more logical to stop the deal now from a practicle stand point. If the defectives are considered no big deal the defects will bleed into the nations herds and you got a dang mess. If carrier th heifers were sent packing in a terminal situation it would reduce spread. If there was a show day test to test all heifer classes ....and all th positive females could not show...would be interesting. But now you have another 25$ test to pay for on top of entry fees. It just gets crazy.

 

[OH Breeder]

I love club calf people,I love club calf people, I love club calf people, I love club calf people. ;D

I have one question. You have used " club bulls" in your own program. Yet you continutally put "club calf" people down. How is that right? That sounds kind of hypocritical to me. Your Sodhouse LIttle Man and  Sodhouse Lady go back to Warhorse a double carrier AND Sodhouse Donna has some steermaker and Pa Do suds. Obviously you have been able to use carrier genetics in your herd with safe management practices.

 

[knabe]

shouldn't that be gizmo instead of gismo on your website aj?