TH Proliferation

[giggty]

Well take specimen to Denver and Ft Worth, let's how well you compete

 

[OH Breeder]

Well take specimen to Denver and Ft Worth, let's how well you compete

Maybe you could post some of your heifers you have raised?

 

[ZNT]

Well take specimen to Denver and Ft Worth, let's how well you compete

You mean like the Calf Champion bull at Ft. Worth that is on my profile picture? 

I am sure you raise some really good ones.  We would all love to see pictures of them, also maybe your name and location so you can get some promotion out of these great pictures that you post. 

 

[Bulldaddy]

The questions should be, 'Can you consistently raise major show winning steers without using TH carrier genetics?'  Of course, the answer is 'no' and that is why there is a proliferation of THC bulls in the industry.

 

[ZNT]

The questions should be, 'Can you consistently raise major show winning steers without using TH carrier genetics?'  Of course, the answer is 'no' and that is why there is a proliferation of THC bulls in the industry.

So from your answer, I take your answer as the marketplace is determining the lineup of bulls that Lautner offers.

Using that logic though, if 1/2 your calf crop is TH carriers from TH bulls, and 1/2 of those carriers are heifers, and using the criteria that all good showsteers must have TH, then only 25% of a calf crop out of a THC bull would be any good.  I am not sure I would call that consistent. In my operation, I sure can't afford to only have 1/4 of my calf crop be marketable, but I know this is the logic used, and that is the practice used today.

The next question to be asked would be is if every herd using THC bulls are producing major show winning steers, or even regional show winning steers.  That answer would be no.  It still comes down to the quality of the cows that are being bred to these bulls.  If all the top steer producing herds changed their breeding program to breeding and flushing their best steer producing cows to the best THF bulls, would we start seeing a higher percentage of THF steers and steer sires come out each year?  This is just hypothetical.  I don't know that answer. 

 

[chambero]

I think Zane's point here is nobody is even trying to breed clean black bulls that can sire steers that can win.  It's kind of turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm certainly guilty of not trying to find anything else out there that will work for black calves.

It all goes back to what do judges want? A big part of our problem is that "judge" is now a profession and they've created their own paradigm that isn't based on anything more than "that's just the way it is."  Judges should come from a little more diverse pool of folks in the cattle industry than professors or the show-oriented purebred operations.

 

[KSanburg]

I think Zane's point here is nobody is even trying to breed clean black bulls that can sire steers that can win.  It's kind of turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm certainly guilty of not trying to find anything else out there that will work for black calves.

It all goes back to what do judges want? A big part of our problem is that "judge" is now a profession and they've created their own paradigm that isn't based on anything more than "that's just the way it is."  Judges should come from a little more diverse pool of folks in the cattle industry than professors or the show-oriented purebred operations.

(clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (clapping) (clapping)

If we had judges that did something besides raise club calves, coach judging teams or promote the show steer industry in some way I agree that we might see the winners circle start to change. Hypothetically if you had classifications at a show THC and THF how many times would the THF win overall champion? I doubt very many, talk about a devided show, it would be fun to watch!

 

[rincker]

I compiled this list from the Lautner catalog. I count 31 bulls that are both TH and PH Free. One more and you could have a tournament to determine the best one

 

[ZNT]

I compiled this list from the Lautner catalog. I count 31 bulls that are both TH and PH Free. One more and you could have a tournament to determine the best one

Interesting first post you chose to put on steerplanet Brent.  I am assuming you are Brent from Rincker Simmentals.  You don't seem to have any TH issues in your herd from what you are offering on your "for sale" page.  That being said, I do appreciate that Lautners do have several clean bulls in their full offering.  We have actually used several of these clean bulls in our operation.  The fact that they have 31 clean bulls in their total offering, yet only 6 in the past two years makes me wonder if they have not had a little change in focus.

 

[hntwhitetail]

Well take specimen to Denver and Ft Worth, let's how well you compete
[/quote

Waiting for your photos

<nopics>

 

[hntwhitetail]

The questions should be, 'Can you consistently raise major show winning steers without using TH carrier genetics?'  Of course, the answer is 'no' and that is why there is a proliferation of THC bulls in the industry.

So from your answer, I take your answer as the marketplace is determining the lineup of bulls that Lautner offers.

Using that logic though, if 1/2 your calf crop is TH carriers from TH bulls, and 1/2 of those carriers are heifers, and using the criteria that all good showsteers must have TH, then only 25% of a calf crop out of a THC bull would be any good.  I am not sure I would call that consistent. In my operation, I sure can't afford to only have 1/4 of my calf crop be marketable, but I know this is the logic used, and that is the practice used today.

The next question to be asked would be is if every herd using THC bulls are producing major show winning steers, or even regional show winning steers.  That answer would be no.  It still comes down to the quality of the cows that are being bred to these bulls.  If all the top steer producing herds changed their breeding program to breeding and flushing their best steer producing cows to the best THF bulls, would we start seeing a higher percentage of THF steers and steer sires come out each year?  This is just hypothetical.  I don't know that answer.   

Very good hypothesis.  I would also like to see what happens if the best get flushed to the best thf bulls.  I recently purchased a bull that I am going to breed to my older cows that is thc and phac out of headliner.  I am going to try and compare what his calves look like to a son of I-80, son of Ali, and a son of Boomer that I will be using that have been used on the same cows.

 

[Bulldaddy]

The questions should be, 'Can you consistently raise major show winning steers without using TH carrier genetics?'  Of course, the answer is 'no' and that is why there is a proliferation of THC bulls in the industry.

So from your answer, I take your answer as the marketplace is determining the lineup of bulls that Lautner offers.

Using that logic though, if 1/2 your calf crop is TH carriers from TH bulls, and 1/2 of those carriers are heifers, and using the criteria that all good showsteers must have TH, then only 25% of a calf crop out of a THC bull would be any good.  I am not sure I would call that consistent. In my operation, I sure can't afford to only have 1/4 of my calf crop be marketable, but I know this is the logic used, and that is the practice used today.

The next question to be asked would be is if every herd using THC bulls are producing major show winning steers, or even regional show winning steers.  That answer would be no.  It still comes down to the quality of the cows that are being bred to these bulls.  If all the top steer producing herds changed their breeding program to breeding and flushing their best steer producing cows to the best THF bulls, would we start seeing a higher percentage of THF steers and steer sires come out each year?  This is just hypothetical.  I don't know that answer.   

I didn't say that all good show steers had to be THC.  There are lots of good show steers that are not THC but among the good ones, those that are carriers will rise to the top because they typically have more bone, more power, more moderation of frame, more of what buyers, and ultimately judges, look for in a show steer these days.

You have a good point, though, if club calf breeders could see beyound short term profits and breed cattle that are THF while selecting for those same desirable traits, we wouldn't have to justiy breeding genetically defective cattle anymore. 

 

[GONEWEST]

The questions should be, 'Can you consistently raise major show winning steers without using TH carrier genetics?'  Of course, the answer is 'no' and that is why there is a proliferation of THC bulls in the industry.

So from your answer, I take your answer as the marketplace is determining the lineup of bulls that Lautner offers.

Using that logic though, if 1/2 your calf crop is TH carriers from TH bulls, and 1/2 of those carriers are heifers, and using the criteria that all good showsteers must have TH, then only 25% of a calf crop out of a THC bull would be any good.  I am not sure I would call that consistent. In my operation, I sure can't afford to only have 1/4 of my calf crop be marketable, but I know this is the logic used, and that is the practice used today.

The next question to be asked would be is if every herd using THC bulls are producing major show winning steers, or even regional show winning steers.  That answer would be no.  It still comes down to the quality of the cows that are being bred to these bulls.  If all the top steer producing herds changed their breeding program to breeding and flushing their best steer producing cows to the best THF bulls, would we start seeing a higher percentage of THF steers and steer sires come out each year?  This is just hypothetical.  I don't know that answer.   

I think the answer to that is a pretty easy one and the answer is sure you would see a higher percentage because in your scenario there would be no carrier bulls used. Even if they used half and half, they would get more because in your scenario all they are using now are carriers. However, there is a reason that they don't do that and that is because, by in large, the calves that are in demand today have at least one TH carrier parent.

I also believe there is a disconnect in your original question  that wonders if these steers that win have to be carriers. Even though you can't really tell by looking, most of these major winners are probably carriers. However, since steers aren't tested, it wouldn't be prudent to assume that they all are. I think what IS evident, beyond doubt, is that major winners are consistently sired by TH carrier bulls. There are bulls that come out each of the past several years that LOOK like carriers but are clean. The problem is they don't have the genetics to  sire the same look on as consistent a basis as the carrier bulls. If you are trying to  make the type of animal that is required by the judges today it is done most consistently by using a TH carrier bull.

Unless the type of animal changes, it will continue to be that way. The judges have about taken this thing to the point that there aren't many bulls that you can use and not care if the calves are heifers or bulls. Most "steer sires" don't consistently produce the same type of heifer the judges want and the bulls that will make the heifers they want won't make the kind of steer they want. I quickly scanned the list of clean bulls on the Lautner page that was shown there and didn't see the sire of many champion steers.

But the main thing on this topic and many similar ones is it's about time to forget about this show cattle thing being some high and mighty pursuit that we should all aspire to leave the world a better place through our stewardship of the genetics of the industry. It's a freakin calf show. It's a tiny part of the beef industry that's only commonality with commercial beef cattle is that they happen to be the same species. I really, really, don't understand why anyone has a problem with that, why it matters to AJ if I have use a TH carrier bull or my cattle grow twice as fast as his. I don't get it. I don't get the people who believe they are "purists" looking down on those who are successful at something else than what they do. I always wonder if they also look down upon people who are successful in other businesses like say bridge builders. That's what the show cattle industry is, just another business. And in the end, the only performance indicator that matters is the numbers on the bank statement that the bank sends each month. That is who is the most successful business man. I don't care if you sell TH carriers or Aircraft carriers. That's all that really matters.

 

[STAL19]

Gonewest pretty much summed up what I was thinking to a tee.

 

[vc]

When the majority of the sires are the hot bulls of the time and TH carriers, it is easy to see why the new bulls are carriers as well. Red Bull and Six Pack were the only 2 clean bulls out of carriers.
Here is the breakdown of sires:
2011:
8 – Monopoly’s
5 – Heat Wave’s
3 – Bojo’s
2 – Heat Seaker’s
1 – JPJ
1 – Dirty Harry
1 – Hairy Bair
1 – Friction/Heat Wave

2012:
10 -Monopoly’s
2 -Bojo’s
2 -Walks Alone’s
1 -Total Solution
1 -I-80
1 –Tiger Woods
1 – Solid Gold  (Heat Wave)
1 – Simple Man

 

[twistedhshowstock]

The last post said exactly what was on my mind.  Yes part of what is driving Lautner to put these bulls in the line up is what the market wants.  But you also have to consider the fact that Lautner plays a very large roll in driving the market. Lautners are promotional geniuses, there are a few people starting to catch up, but there still isnt anybody out there that out promotes Lautner.  As Brad Hooks said a few years ago, he was getting out of the promotional bull business because Lautner came in and completely changed the game and made it really hard to compete.  The other thing to look at is where all the bulls Lautner typically come from.  I cant remember off the top of my head one that doesnt go back to an older bull that he already owns.  Lautner buys and promotes bulls that trace back to his older bulls, then he promotes the hell out of them, then he can say that the older bulls not only produce show steers, but bulls that produce as well.  Its all a big circle of supporting his profit.  And when you think that his bread and butter bulls that put him on the map were carriers, and that probably 90% of the bulls or more that he buys and promotes go back to those same few bulls(generally on both sides of the family tree) then you can see why so many of the bulls are carriers themselves. 
I agree with GONEWEST also, I dont see why so many people are concerned with the industry, if the industry isnt affecting them.  If you hate show cattle why are you even on this forum.  If you are strictly a commercial cattleman you probably dont get a lot of helpful advice from this forum.  I agree I think its sad that the cattle we are producing for the showring are less and less functional every year.  But we are not the only show industry that has that issue.  The AKC governs most dog shows, because of their lapse in registration requirements and judging criteria many genetic defects such as blindness and deafness have been proliferated in dogs.  I dont remember when the last time I saw a world champion halter horse that wasnt crippled.  How many breeding gilt shows do the champions look like market hogs that will never carry a litter that will amount to anything when it comes to numbers.  but its all about producing that ONE great one in the show industry, functionality is out the window as long as we produce that one  great one.  Like I said I think thats a sad reality, but it is reality.
And like Chambero said, the other issue is not many people are making an effort to produce anything else, the ones that do produce a decent clean bull  dont typically get to promote him like the big boys that are promoting dirty bulls, so thus the good clean bull only gets bred to 100 cows each year instead of 2,000 and he doesnt get bred to the best cows he gets bred to middle of the pack.  So he never even really gets a fair chance to prove if he can do it or not.
Like was said earlier, this is all a self fulfilling prophecy.  I think it could be changed and you could eventually have clean cattle that are as good as the carriers we see today, but it takes a long term breeding goal, realizing that you might give up a few good ones each year to make that happen.  As I ahve said before it wont happen over night . But as long as dollar signs are rolling through peoples heads and they are looking for immediate turn around then the industry will continue to truck on just like its doing now.

 

[lcattleco.]

Have any of you been to a steer show lately??  The steers that are winning today are more in line with the industry than they have been in twenty years.  Since when has a huge assed cripple won a major or a state fair in recent memory...

 

[J2F]

I posted this on another thread not to long ago. What are your guys opinion?

What if game!!! Party

What if major shows announced JAN 1st 2013 that come 2016  all entries must be free of any known genetic defects and all division champions will be tested?

How would the industries change?

Anybody think it will change any major players? IMO it will not they will adapt and stay on top doing what they do best. Finding the best cattle that fit the mold and MARKETING! Genetic defects is a byproduct of the mold not the reason for their success.

Can anyone explain how the cattle industry as a whole would be weaker if this was to happen? Individually (show, club, breed, commercial)? This is by no means a pet peeve of mine. I don't want to mess with genetic defects in my heard so I buy clean heifers and don't use infected bulls right now but the topic does interest me in the fact that I can't figure out how this is better for the cattle industry as a whole to have genetic defects around?

 

[lcattleco.]

Partly because genetic defects have been around for a million years and will be for the next million.  Get rid of pha and th and something else will come along.  its something as producers that you deal with.  dairy cows, goats, sheep, horses, dogs cats and show chickens.  They all have them, its life!!!

 

[GONEWEST]

Can anyone tell me why this is still a topic? Why does it matter if show cattle have TH, PHA, XYZ, Phd? WHY? Who cares and why? Its like whining that apples are red and they would be better if like oranges, they were orange. If they didn't have a smooth peel. They ought to have a rough peel like an orange. And they gotta suck since they aren't grown in the same environment as an orange. (For all my Tennessee friends just remember that no fruit sucks like a Big Orange!) Why can't apples be oranges? I hate apples because they aren't oranges. These people that have apple orchards are idiots and out to dupe the world because, why, they grow apples! I have an orange orchard and those oranges grow all on their own. If a freeze comes at the wrong time, well too bad for the orange. We are developing freeze resistant oranges. Probably won't happen in my lifetime, probably won't happen in my kids lifetime, probably won't happen in their grand kids lifetime, but by golly we're working on it through environmental pressure. That apple orchard guy sprays his trees with water to protect them from freezing, what an idiot! No environmental pressure applied to his orchard, no siree bob! Nothing real world about apples.
What's that? The apple orchard guy made 759 times the amount of money I did this year with my environmentally pressurized oranges? BLASPHEMY!!!! Off with his head! He's out to rule the world with his Red Delicious and Granny Smiths. Moron doesn't know a thing about oranges. Next thing you know apples will be everywhere, taking over the citrus industry, you know. Do tangerines allow apples to be registered in their herd book?  :