The cover of Shorthorn Country

[Dale]

I recall hearing of her and probably saw her at the NAILE?  An Improver according to DigitalBeef.

Another Margie from the same family was also flushed a lot--AF SHANNON MARGIE 924. 

 

[mark tenenbaum]

924 was probably the most important well known one by far But i saw a Dividends impact x Black nose female in Texas that was a real sow around 1993 WAY AHEAD OF HER TIME O0

 

[oakview]

Torgerson's white with a black nose Pearl (sired by Clark) was long before that.  1975 I think.  She did a ton of winning.  We had an occasional black nosed Shorthorn back in the 60's.  Nothing new. 

 

[justintime]

Glamis Benefactor was imported from Scotland and he not only had a black nose, but he had black pigment all over is body. His hair was mainly red but a lot of his skin was black and some of his hair was as well. There was many black nosed animals in the Scottish cattle. One of the last bulls I remember being imported wss named Drynie Argosy. He was  red and white in color which was  not well accepted in the 1960s and he also had a pitch black nose. Louie Latimer from Remitall Cattle Co,, Olds Alberta said that he thought Argosy was one of the best bulls he had seen in several years despite his color and his black nose. He bought him anyways for the improvement he would bring.
Many of the Irish cattle that came over in the 70s and 80s also produced some black noses.

 

[knabe]

what are shorthorn purists, for lack of a better word, so worried about with black?


cataloging it on a phenotype?  slippery slope of color types? 


they are otherwise shorthorns?


i mean, seriously, they should genotype the whole herd, and get rid of anything with holstein, maine's, who knows what else.


all breeds are like this. all of them.

 

[RyanChandler]

what are shorthorn purists, for lack of a better word, so worried about with black?


cataloging it on a phenotype?  slippery slope of color types? 


they are otherwise shorthorns?


i mean, seriously, they should genotype the whole herd, and get rid of anything with holstein, maine's, who knows what else.


all breeds are like this. all of them.

I don’t know of any other breed like this that has no phenotypical standards or defining breed characteristics.  Shorthorn is the only association of any red hided breed I know of that even allows black noses to be registered.  Disqualification in every Shorthorn registry in the word- not the ASA they’ll take your money.    I raised a hell of a black nose calf.  Even used him after Oakview saying he had a black nose bull that didn’t throw any dark nosed calves.  My experience hasnt been so fortunate.

 

[knabe]

what does a black nose imply?


what breed other than shorthorn is it supposed to come from?


chi, angus, other?


or is it a birth mark.


a few new colors in horses have been described lately.


maybe it's no big deal.


shorthorns have short horns.  maybe that's enough of a description?

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Probably the other way around-There is Shorthorn DNA in every Angus animal no matter how diluted and the black gene generally makes an x bred calf black or variations or red And if you HAVE A GOOD ONE ITS A GOOD ONE-commercial people dont give a rats a@$%^*()s about nose color-and neither do I if the burger or steak tastes good  O0

 

[oakview]

On the top ten list of selection factors for my herd, a black nose would be about 25th. 

 

[knabe]

black noses better with regard to sunburn.

 

[JPS]

If you will go read "History of Shorthorn cattle" by James Sinclair, you will find that many of the original shorthorns that were registered in the herd book had black noses.  I don't know who created the myth that Shorthorns can't have a black nose.

 

[RyanChandler]

Idk thats its a myth as much as it is a breed standard.  What constitutes a "breed" if not a uniform or at least similar set of characteristics?

Why does every Shorthorn association in the world -except for the ASA- bar entry to black nose animals?

Why does every red pigment breed out there -red angus, Charolais, hereford, etc- bar entry to black nose animals?

Would seem to me that amongst cattle associations, theres a pretty unanimous consensus regarding this topic?

 

[shortybreeder]

Idk thats its a myth as much as it is a breed standard.  What constitutes a "breed" if not a uniform or at least similar set of characteristics?

Why does every Shorthorn association in the world -except for the ASA- bar entry to black nose animals?

Why does every red pigment breed out there -red angus, Charolais, hereford, etc- bar entry to black nose animals?

Would seem to me that amongst cattle associations, theres a pretty unanimous consensus regarding this topic?

Shorthorn Beef association doesn't explicitly forbid it. They ban "colours and markings foreign to the breed" which leaves the black noses paired with roan/red/white hair coats up to interpretation.
Beef Shorthorn association Rules and Regs don't even address coat color, and neither does the Australian Shorthorn association
I couldn't find a website for the Performance Shorthorn Association to confirm what their registration requirements are
CSA does ban black noses (kind of, but based on above comments it doesn't seem to be enforced).
Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?

 

[JPS]

You can look at coat color and say that it is a differentiation from other breeds.  I don't see any economic value to differentiating on a standard colored nose.  I have never heard a commercial cattleman sort the black noses out of a replacement heifer pen. I bet if we DNA tested all of the breeds, regardless of breed standards, we would find genetic diversity due to an unintended or intended breeding error.  DNA testing is the only way to prove an animal is "pure" in a legal sense.

 

[oakview]

I didn't know Char. were red pigmented.  I guess you learn something every day.  Speaking of "pure", how many "pure" Charolais are there around?  Are there any "pure" Herefords out there, black nose or not?  Weren't there some "pure" Herefords not long ago that threw rat tails?  I would say those animals had more serious problems than black noses.  If you look, at the WHR photo in question, the heifer in the background is clearly not a purebred Shorthorn, even if she has a white nose.  They offer several plusses each year in their sale and there's a real possibility the black nosed heifer in question is also a plus, making this discussion even more useless than it already is. 

 

[knabe]

It’s already been proven with dna there are no pure cattle.

That’s not the issue.

 

[RyanChandler]

Has nothing to do with purity- it has to do with maintaining a breed standard.

I’m not sure where the purity focus comes from. I don’t own any native shorthorns. 


Surely you didn’t think Charolais had black pigment?  Black and red are the only two pigment colors.  Even if both Char parents were Fullbloods, if calf has black nose it can only be registered as a 15/16ths. 

If it is a plus on the cover it makes the conversation even more relevant is why in the world would a purebred registry have a crossbred as the poster child.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

So that other breeds and or commercial breeders will try Shorthorns based upon the improvements made by the complimentary (mutual?) heterosis gained by the union of two breeds-Back to the purist endless loop-WHO ELSE OCCASIONALLY MAY USE A  SHORTHORN? non purists Who is the association looking for? (NON PURISTS) And why are breed comparisons RE the positive results  of using a Shorthorn on something else important to the association? up to debate-but sorta leaves this thread-hide color and a few other things past tense.Did the doner of the "Angus" beef-Fillet you paid $75 for have a black nose? Who nose-who cares? O0

 

[oakview]

Mark:  Thanks for making my point.  Next time I'll try to be more clear.  Breed standards?  Black Maines, Black Limmys, black Gelbvieh, black Chis with virtually no Chi breeding, black Chars, red Chars, black Simmys.  And we're worried about a black nose.  More power to Shorthorn Country if they try to emphasize the use of Shorthorns on commercial herds, whether they tried to do that with the cover in questions or not. 

 

[Hopster1000]

[/quote]
Beef Shorthorn bans polled cattle because they don't trace back to the Coates herdbook.. why don't we ban polled shorthorns right along with the black noses if we're going the purist route?
[/quote]

I was under the impression that polling occured naturally in Shorthorns, and have witnessed it at first hand as my father had a polled calf from horned parents. So could happen in heritage shorthorns or modern shorthorns.
Polling is a mutation that happens at a higher rate in Shorthorns than other breeds.
I had heard that polled shorthorns were then used to introduce the polled gene to many other breeds as the incidence of polling in some breeds is very low.