The fascination with "Hairy"

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Bawndoh

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This thread is in response to one of the posts on another thread.  Anyhow...I have notised all to often that the comment about a bull/calf/heifer reads......"Tons of Bone and Hair".  I would agree that bone and hair are one of the major "charactoristics" of clubby cattle.  I dont understand WHY it is necessary.  Tree trunk legs do look cool, but they are creating numerous calving problems, amongst other things.  Why do we need so much bone?????
The hairy thing gets me too....so many times the comment is "Tons of Hair and Bone".  It is like they are trying to sell the hair!  Why the heck would I want hair?  Are we breeding alpaca's??  I realize it IS easy to hide flaws, and it does make an animal look much smoother when they are fit up well.  But when all the producer has to mention is that the calf has a lot of hair, it makes me wonder whether the rest of the calf is crap!

Opinions??
 

red

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I just know the more I bred to clubby bulls the more structural problems I've had. I'm going back to my high % Maines. Hair balls are nice but to me structural correctness outweighs hairs by far. Also too many of the clubby bulls are carriers & I'm trying to achieve a defect clean herd. I guess hair is the last thing I'm breeding for right now.
I am looking at bone however. I do have some issue w/ some calves being too fine boned. Others can be too coarse boned. there is a happy medium in my opinion. also it makes a big difference in the calving ease.

Red
 

ELBEE

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If your calves can't consistently maintain a 63% carcase yield, you have too much hair and\or bone.

In other words, moderate boned, slick haired cattle don't usually have trouble yielding well.

"Poodles don't make good cow dogs."
 

inthebarnagain

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I know if I were fed hair or bone at a steakhouse I would be ticked.  Isn't' the meat the ultimate goal with BEEF cattle???
 

shortyisqueen

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Bawndoh said:
This thread is in response to one of the posts on another thread.  Anyhow...I have notised all to often that the comment about a bull/calf/heifer reads......"Tons of Bone and Hair".  I would agree that bone and hair are one of the major "charactoristics" of clubby cattle.  I dont understand WHY it is necessary.  Tree trunk legs do look cool, but they are creating numerous calving problems, amongst other things.  Why do we need so much bone?????
The hairy thing gets me too....so many times the comment is "Tons of Hair and Bone".  It is like they are trying to sell the hair!  Why the heck would I want hair?  Are we breeding alpaca's??  I realize it IS easy to hide flaws, and it does make an animal look much smoother when they are fit up well.  But when all the producer has to mention is that the calf has a lot of hair, it makes me wonder whether the rest of the calf is crap!

Opinions??

I bet this post will get some replies!  ;)

In the real world of functional cattle, extreme hair and extreme bone don't do much. Extreme hair, especially in the summer, can sometimes go hand in hand with infertility. Extreme bone, in heifers, can also go along with infertitily and a huge bone size usually means they don't have much marbling (look at well high dairy cattle marble and then look at the size of their bone)...BUT the clubby world revolves around what will win. Bigger boned cattle LOOK thicker, so they will place higher. Hairier cattle can be made to look thicker as well. They ARE trying to sell the hair, because people will PAY FOR IT. If you ever had two perfect calves...and one had hair and one didn't, the one with hair would clean the other one's clock every time.

Despite the show world being very small and sometimes impractical, it is still a real part of the industry. It is no more artificial than getting people to buy a new car that has 300 horsepower even though their top speed will only ever be 60 or a new computer even though their old one isn't worn out. It is an industry based on emotion (I want to win), and therefore, people will pay more for a luxury item (a steer that will win and thus make them happy). Your question and the answer are both ones of economics. If a steer that wins is big boned and hairy, and he's worth more than a feeder steer with average bone and no hair, people will raise what the market demands. If suddenly feeder steers with a tonne of marbling were worth twice the price of a show steer, no one would care about hair and bone size would get substantially smaller. That's assuming that feeder steers became an emotional purchase...I don't think that will ever happen... :D
 

red

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ELBEE said:
"Poodles don't make good cow dogs."

don't let common sense hear that! her cattle dogs are standard poodles! nothing funnier than seeing a big black poodle getting dirty in the barn! his name is Darby & he's the love of her life next to her hubby, kids & Joe!
(dog)
Red
 

mp

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This is why I love San Antonio and Houston. They are slick. But it will never happen in Fort Worth, so I guess we will continue to work hair!
 

Dusty

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shortyisqueen said:
Bawndoh said:
This thread is in response to one of the posts on another thread.  Anyhow...I have notised all to often that the comment about a bull/calf/heifer reads......"Tons of Bone and Hair".  I would agree that bone and hair are one of the major "charactoristics" of clubby cattle.  I dont understand WHY it is necessary.  Tree trunk legs do look cool, but they are creating numerous calving problems, amongst other things.  Why do we need so much bone?????
The hairy thing gets me too....so many times the comment is "Tons of Hair and Bone".  It is like they are trying to sell the hair!  Why the heck would I want hair?  Are we breeding alpaca's??  I realize it IS easy to hide flaws, and it does make an animal look much smoother when they are fit up well.  But when all the producer has to mention is that the calf has a lot of hair, it makes me wonder whether the rest of the calf is crap!

Opinions??

I bet this post will get some replies!  ;)

In the real world of functional cattle, extreme hair and extreme bone don't do much. Extreme hair, especially in the summer, can sometimes go hand in hand with infertility. Extreme bone, in heifers, can also go along with infertitily and a huge bone size usually means they don't have much marbling (look at well high dairy cattle marble and then look at the size of their bone)...BUT the clubby world revolves around what will win. Bigger boned cattle LOOK thicker, so they will place higher. Hairier cattle can be made to look thicker as well. They ARE trying to sell the hair, because people will PAY FOR IT. If you ever had two perfect calves...and one had hair and one didn't, the one with hair would clean the other one's clock every time.

Despite the show world being very small and sometimes impractical, it is still a real part of the industry. It is no more artificial than getting people to buy a new car that has 300 horsepower even though their top speed will only ever be 60 or a new computer even though their old one isn't worn out. It is an industry based on emotion (I want to win), and therefore, people will pay more for a luxury item (a steer that will win and thus make them happy). Your question and the answer are both ones of economics. If a steer that wins is big boned and hairy, and he's worth more than a feeder steer with average bone and no hair, people will raise what the market demands. If suddenly feeder steers with a tonne of marbling were worth twice the price of a show steer, no one would care about hair and bone size would get substantially smaller. That's assuming that feeder steers became an emotional purchase...I don't think that will ever happen... :D

This goes back to my philosphy that there are "show" cattle, ie bone, hair, clean fronted, stylish, big square hips etc.  The preceding traits really have no economical use in "real" cattle.   "Real" cattle are bred to perform in pasture, the feedlot, the rail, and on top of the charcoal.  Trying to compare show cattle to real cattle is not a fair arguement for either side.  Show cattle are like race horses, bred for entertainment.  Real cattle are bred to make money through the ways I described earlier.  And, when i say "show" cattle, I don't mean the purebreds that show at the state fairs, Denver, etc for promotion purposes. These cattle are still "real" cattle.  "Show" cattle are the hairy, big boned, small nutted, poor fertility, hard doing cattle that we try to pamper along in a refrigerator to a market weight.  The two don't have a lot in common in my opinion.
 

Bawndoh

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Ok...well this is looking good.  I was looking for mostly opinions, but arguments are sometimes ok..... (lol).  Anyhow...I think that most cattle (esp canadian) should be able to grow a substantial amount of hair in the cold/winter months.  I am not opposed to the hairy thing.  I have seen way too many hard doing hairballs that are considered good cattle cause their 6 inches of hair covers all their problems.  A bit of hair is just fine, and like someone else said...no hair would take all the fun out of it.  I am just wondering if any people out there are worried about sructure at all anymore?? 
As far as "show cattle" being totally useless to the real world, I would disagree.  Who is it that demanded them to be this way??  The show ring did it.  How sad is that?  A show ring convinces people to produce the cattle the way the show ring wants it to.  I dont think cattle need to be the nutless, gutless, infertile messes they are.  Why cant they be a Denver/Fort Worth winner AND be real-world functional?
 

red

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Bawndoh said:
As far as "show cattle" being totally useless to the real world, I would disagree.  Who is it that demanded them to be this way??  The show ring did it.  How sad is that?  A show ring convinces people to produce the cattle the way the show ring wants it to.  I dont think cattle need to be the nutless, gutless, infertile messes they are.  Why cant they be a Denver/Fort Worth winner AND be real-world functional?

one of my best production cows is Rose who was a grand champion show heifer. they can be both. She had the hair & still does. she had the cocky show attitude & still does. I think she still looks good enough enough to go out & show still. I firmly believe former show heifers are the best kind!

Red
 

pnewendyke

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Hair, bone and look wins and sells. Simple as that. Show cattle can be produced without cripples and hard doers this can be done by having good functional females and using bulls that look good "In Person" I haven't used a bull I haven't seen in four years.  Also wouldnt breed any of my cows to 90% of the bulls I've seen in person especially when you see them at the stud...Wow. Anyway thats my opinion I'm entitled to say it...everyone else does.  People expect the calves out of the picture perfect bull to look exactly like them, the cow is half the calf and many bulls probably never looked they do in the picture and never will. The arguement will be and always is...I live to far away to go look at the bulls in stud.  My response is which costs more, a couple hundred dollars worth of gas and using the right bull and getting sound good doing calves or using some bull based on a picture and getting poor cripplehard doing calves after anticipating a calf that looks like a picture for nine months? Makes sense to me... Good luck to all this breeding season.
 

Dusty

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I am not saying all showring cattle are worthless in real world setting.  There are old show heifers that turned into awesome cows.  The best cow on our place was one of my little brother's show heifers (WMW x Limi), but I'm sure if you plot out the performance data of the traits that are economical in the real world, show cattle would be on the lower end.  Percentage wise there are more fertility problems, more calving difficulty, more performance issues in a feedlot setting, and more structure issues with "show" cattle than there is with "real" cattle that have had the negative traits bred out of them over the years.  Just like there are real cattle that ocassionally do well in the showring there are show cattle that ocassionally do well in a real world setting.  It is more the exception than the rule though....
 

dutch pride

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This discussion between "show" cattle and "real" cattle seems to come up a lot. One thing that I have learned by reading this board and other publications and talking to other cattlemen is that there is also a lot of difference between good "real cattle". The type of cattle that work well in the Midwest might not work well in Wyoming. Or those that thrive in the Dakotas might not do well in the heat of west Texas. Different cattle for differant situations. No right or wrong cattle.

DLZ
 

justintime

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I think that shortyisqueen has again nailed this question about hair, and I think her answer is very accurate. I also agree that too much hair can be an issue in the real world in regards to fertility issues.

I am sure many of you have noticed that the most fertile cows in your herd are the ones that start to shed their winter hair the earliest in the spring. I am thinking this may be a hormone thing, but it certainly seems that the females that you see the hair( especially along the midline of the back) shedding, are almost always the first to calve the next year. Those females that hold their hair well into the warmer spring and summer weather, are usually the hardest ones to get in calf... and are also usually the hardest ones to catch in heat.  I find that my real hairy heifers almost drive me crazy, trying to catch them in heat.  I really believe there is a correlation between the amount of hair and fertility issues.

Here in Canada, as well as many parts of the northern US, we like to see good hair on our breeding stock. A good hair coat is important to help an animal maintain itself in our cold winter months. But as I have said in many previous posts, I think almost every trait we can breed into our animals is best in " optimum" amounts... and this includes hair. If you have ever tried to sell a bull to Australia, one of the first questions you will be asked is " how much hair does the animal have?". Not only are the Aussies concerned about the amount of hair an animal has because of their environment, but they believe too much hair will result in reduction in fertility in their herds. I have had Aussie breeders tell me that certain US and Canadian bulls did not work in their country because their daughters were too hairy and as a result, oftentimes came in open after the breeding season... and were culled. If you look at Australian breeders advertisements, they oftnetimes promote their bulls as being " slick coated". As I mentioned, this is partly due to their environment... and partly due to their believe that slick haired cattle are more fertile.

Hair is a real part of the " clubby " world. As shortyisqueen has mentioned it is an economic issue. In the clubby world, the only real days that really count are the days you walk your animal into the show ring, so you want to have as much impact as possible, as first impressions can make a difference to the results you end up with. Oftentimes, we see posts on here about cool rooms, rinsing your animal two or three times a day etc etc etc. None of these topics have any logic in the real world, but they make perfect sense in the clubby world. This does not mean that one or the other is right. Both can be right. Where the problems occur is when people try to use clubby logic in a real world setting.... or real world logic in a clubby setting.

Unfortunately, too many people think that because a heifer has had a great show career, she should be a great donor for all parts of the beef industry. It could well be that she may be a great producer of show oriented stock. It may well be that this same female is virtually worthless as a producer of offspring that will work in commercial beef herds. There are some that can do both.... and this is why I almost always object when I see posts that say that show bloodlines... or show animals will not work in the real world. Some simply won't... but some can. This is not a black or white issue. The real problem is that too many people do not understand enough about structure and fertility, and how these two things work together.

Hair is important in both worlds. Here in Canada, a feeder calf with hair will bring more at the sale barn than a slick animal. We regularly got as much as 10 cents more per pound for our Charolais steers that had " good hair" than we did for the slick haired steers. Oftentimes, the hairy animals seem to be a little looser hided cattle and they tend to flesh easier and finish faster. Again, this is not a hard fast rule.. but a general one.Many of the original European breeds like the Limousin, Blonde, and even Maines, did not have much hair. North American breeders have worked hard to breed some hair into these breeds, and today you will cattle from these breeds with excellent hair.Hair is an important trait to a feedlot operator. Feedlot operators have little or no concern about fertility issues. Fertility is of utmost importance to the producer, so again we see there are areas where two worlds clash. This is why I have come to the conclusion that somewhere in this mix, there has to be some area of common ground... or " optimum conditions".

 

justintime

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I intended to also mention in my last post that there is oftentimes a difference in what is considered to be " GOOD HAIR". Good hair to a clubby producer may refer to the length of the hair more than the thickness of the hair. Good hair to a commercial producer may refer more to the thickness of the hair coat than it does to the length of the hair. To me, my best haired animals have thick mossy coats and  the hair doesn't get real long. It seems to me that most of the females with this type of hair seem to shed quickly in the spring. I find that if I see evidence of the hair shedding along the midline of the back early in the spring, there usually are no fertility issues. These females may have some winter hair lower on their sides for awhile,but they seem to breed quickly. The ones I wonder about are the females that show no signs of shedding long after the weather has warmed up in the early spring. I also find that my most fertile females are also the first to start to develop their winter hair coats in the fall.  I have not sure if there has been any research done in this area, but my cowboy logic suggests there is some factors in play here.
 

SWMO

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Ever seen Cows brought in from the Mountain Country and turned out of Fescue?  Difference types of cattle within a breed do better in different parts of the country.  Those mountain cows take several years to adapt to fescue, heat and humidity.  Our summers are hot and our winters can be pretty cold.  Just not as cold and long as you folks in Canada.  For which I am extremely grateful as I seem to be getting thinner blooded the older I get. :D
 

doubled

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I think all this depends on what market you are in, I have been around both what I call commercial cattle and show cattle, there is, and always will be a line in the sand
between both worlds, right now bone and hair are important in the show world, but for us we try to breed that into our show animals but first and foremost they have
to also be functional in the world, in otherwords our cows can and do function in the pasture, true they get a little hot in the summer from their heavier coat but they do
survive and prosper- We also have some totally hairless cows that we use for commercial purposes only they are just a good mamma, but dont raise show animals.
I think some of us just need to realize that both commercial normal breeding cows have a true function in the world but the show animal also has a true function here too,
just what would some of us do in our spare time if we werent messing with these show animals????  Where would our money go,  in a boat??? (thumbsup)
Dont all of you remember the ugly tall hairless animals that were in like in the 70's OH MY and they were so straight- We have come a long way since then I think.
As far as genetic defects I agree we really need to watch that but I think we are also making a mountain out of a molehill in some respects.
 
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