THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND NEWER POSTS WITH DIVIDEND INFLUENCED CATTLE

[mark tenenbaum]

JOHNNY HOOK HOOKS SIMMENTAL DISCOVERED DIVIDEND AND THE IRISH CATTLE BY HAPPENSTANCE- THE REST IS HISTORY The state of Kansas has INEVITABLY collected some pretty eclectic designations. Arguably-one of the most important "backwoods" cattle discoverys of the 20th century would have been when JONNY HOOK-a simmital (in 1971) breeder from Kansas stumbled across Deerpark Leader the 13 as a calf in Ireland. I took him from the Iowa state fair to Kansas one time back around 1992-and he told me the story stumbling across these incredible Shorthorns in Ireland, getting hooked(no pun intended) with Beef Genetics Research in Kansas-and History was made. I saw early pics of Dividend -and Improver on display at the WO sale where-with Mrs WO-standing behind them in 1972+-They were thicker and squarer butted-than alot of(non-maine-clubby) cattle even  today-there again-the Us shorthorns had been plagued by the dual-Ayatollah type genetics.I Pmd Oakleaf-ABOUT MY TRIP TO iRELAND IN 1990-etc-AND i HIT EM ALL-INCLUDING QUANES. The thing that most impressed me was Hook talking about what a cool-good sport Dividend was-just a doll-and everybody loved him. ((% of the Irish cattle I have encountered would rival the EXT Angus-in thier"GOOD NATURE".Almost every animal that went back to-or was sired by Dividend-was a teddy bear like him. DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0

 

[yuppiecowboy]

The story as I have been told was that Harris Simons, executive secretary I believe, came back from Ireland around 1968 ish with stories of shorthorn cattle weaning in excess of 800 pounds. He was called a liar and essentially ran out of the breed.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

 

[knabe]

So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

ask tim ohlde.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

So what breeding was the 13th bull in ur opinion. What was his "cross"? if u will

ask tim ohlde.///OR Jonny Hook-

 

[knabe]

DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0

how could he type?  his gene pool wasn't in the typed population.

any idea what he typed to if not shorthorn?

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

Wow I am just gettin more questions the answers so I will drop it. Never would have guessed Ohlde would know. Crazy stuff.

 

[aj]

Very interesting history and politics on all this stuff. I have heard that the allowing of the Maine Anjou into the Shorthorn book at 3 quarter level passed by one vote. At first the Irish cattle weren't accepted then they were. I always wondered if a breeds members ever voted on such a question?

 

[knabe]

Wow I am just gettin more questions the answers so I will drop it. Never would have guessed Ohlde would know. Crazy stuff.

no need. keep asking.  the best things come from the scenario you mentioned where more questions come than answers.

 

[oldhorn]

yuppie cowboy is right.  Harris simons, WHO was owner andeditor of the Shorthorn world first told of the tremendous weaning weights o Irish cattle .  while they looked shorthorn, he made no claim as to their purity.  Harris Had other pro bblems and i don't think the issue of his promotion of Irish cattle was thefactor that led to the demise of the shorthorn world .  Alan sears could probably tell you the whole story.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

DIVIDEND DOESNT BLOOD TYPE_But Hes still one of the best bulls of any breed that ever lived. O0

how could he type?  his gene pool wasn't in the typed population.////-I guess because he was still in use almost 30 years later O0

any idea what he typed to if not shorthorn?

 

[Dale]

ASA had an agreement with Coates Herd Book (in Britain) that whatever cattle were accepted into Coates, automatically came into ASA herd book, so Irish came into the U.S. through a loophole without regard to their purity.  Was that in the early 70's?  Many of us were impressed by Dividend and Improver when they were on display in Louisville--there was a big debate about which was the better bull.

 

[aj]

I myself am not a "purity guy....non asterisk or whatever". I think predictability is more important. I think we could start a list of asterisk free bulls that most people know are impure.

 

[trevorgreycattleco]

How many cattle in the herdbook trace back to these Irish cattle? Where the bulls really that good to overlook the impurity? If he doesn't blood type, how in the wide world of sports does he still qualify shortie? What was the outside breed crossed? (I don't want to call Ohlde lol). Just curious. I find it crazy that they would be allowed when everyone knew they were not pure. I still can't believe Tim Ohlde was involoved with this deal.I picture him as the angus man still even tho he has shorties. I talked with Lee Johnson awhile back, he was talkin about all this, said it was a huge stink for awhile and he gave me a wink.. But didn't really explain it. I have a feeling no shorties are truly pure anymore. If there are lines out there that have remained pure, what are they? Where are they?

 

[GM]

I often wondered what Dividend was.  You really didn't see that speckled red necked roan color pattern like his on too many shorthorns prior to dividend (at least that I've seen).  TPS Coronet Leader 21st didn't throw roans like Dividend or spots like WO Dividend when breed to red cows.  I believe the only other cattle in the UK that had a roan color pattern were the Irish Moiled (a naturally polled breed) and the English Longhorn (thick cattle nothing like texas longhorns).  I think it's common knowledge that Improver was at least a 1/4 galloway.  I always thought the irish cattle might be remnants of draft/working cattle.

Does anyone know who Quane was marketing too in Ireland?  Was he breeding to produce bulls for local commercial cattleman?  finished steers?  Was he following what his father, his fathers father, etc always did by raising these cattle?  I assume they weren't breeding for showing/recraetion like many US breeders. 

On the Irish Breed Society it says "The breed was used in the early part of the 20th Century, primarily as a dual purpose breed, but specialisation for beef and milk led to the beef breeders starting their own section of the herd book in 1958. Since that time the beef Shorthorns have been developed as a separate breed and in 1976 in an effort to improve the muscling in the breed, the Directors of the Beef Shorthorn Cattle Society sanctioned the use of Maine-Anjou blood into the breed. The herd book was then closed again to outside blood in 2001, except by introduction through Grading Register."  Not sure how soon before 1976 Maines were used.  They have an interesting set of bulls listed on the site.  I requested a copy of their sire summary and they sent one to me.  There are bulls w/ Deerpark, Ballyart, Highfield blood, and some pedigrees that might as well be written in greek.  There are also a lot of canadian bulls in their catalogue.  Here's the site: http://www.irishshorthorns.com/

Trevor, you mention "purebred" shorthorns.  These guys have been breeding for a long time and used to register under the name Frosty Acres.  The Frosty Acres genetics show up in a lot of west coast cattle that are being shown today actually (if you go back far enough).  You can tell by the site that these cattle are not pampered or selected for the show ring...aka beauty is in the eye of the beholder... http://albaughranch.com/our_cattle.html

 

[yuppiecowboy]

As I understand it, Clare Man (sire of Improver) was aquired form the village auction. He most resembled a galloway, but at least he was red. I doubt that it is a coincidence that Improver is the Typhoid Mary of a genetic defect long known to be in Galloways.

I believe necessity dictated that liberties be taken with the "purity" aspect of breed. At that time the continentals were rolling in and shorthorns were in peril of becoming irrelevant (personally I think the decisions made then hastened the breed demise) and a great deal of back room deals and politics guided the way. Also at this time Milking Shorthorns were let in, if you had the money and the right name to get your Milking Shorthorn animal validated.

You cant argue that there were some Irish cattle that improved the breed and were quality beef animals (not sure if dividend is one of them though) but at that time it was all about growth and frame and marketing the country of origin.

These two additions sure helped the growth and frame score, but both damaged the breed far more than they helped it. After the Irish Mutts and Duals did their damage, it was necessary to let Maine Anjou in to try and fix it. Maines are probably higher in foundation shorthorn blood than anything that ever came from Ireland.

There are some small concentrations of what would be considered pure, or scotch shorthorns around. Somebody has a website somewhere on their efforts. There are a great deal of herds in Canada that never followed the fads we did in the US chasing frame at all cost and undoubtedly stayed a genetic path that would be devoid of Irish, dual, or maine contamination.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

GM, we think alike but apparently you type faster.

I wondered if the funky markings might have been due to Ayrshire influence?

The individual escapes me, but I remember being told that one prominent Irish bull came from a smallholder who had one cow that he led down the road to get serviced every year.

 

[aj]

Did the dual(milking shorthorn) hurt things all that though? The Angus breed used the Holstein to change type. At least I think the milking shorthorn and shorthorn were kinda related. I think the duals helped milking ability and udder shape. Some dual bloodlines killed fleshing ability while increasing growth. In reality a breed should change some over a 100 year period do to changing conditions. Since the Shorthorn breed is so widespread worldwide I think there have been genetic offshoots to chnage things up. There probably more different germ plasma in the Shortrhorn breed than any other breed,for better or worse. I don't see how you can look at the black maine cattle today(being shown) and call them anywhere near being pure.jmo

 

[Okotoks]

I don't beleive the color pattern of the Irish will help determine what their make up might be. I was recently given a 1940 Shorthorn News by Bud and Lil Boake and a champion Shorthorn Steer pictured was red with white socks. The red with mark marks color pattern is linked to the the light or white roan pattern as neither have the white limitining factor. (Angus have the white limiting factor so any white is only occurring on their underline whereas most Holsteins don't have a white limiting factor so you get the whole black and white range of patterns)  The early Shorthorns were often red with white marks or light roan especially the Bates Shorthorns. Look at the old photos of Duchess 34th, Belvedere and Duke of Northumberland. In the 1930's, 40's'50's and 60's red ruled in Beef Shorthorns.Since red was selected for most of the roans were even dark roans and almost all bull calves with white markings were steerd. The dual puropose and milking were selected mostly on milk production not color so you still got light roans like Columbus and Spiro. You also got red with white marks still showing up in beef herds. In 1969 we bought a heifer from Pethybridges that was red with white marks.The red and white pattern in Maine Anjou actually came from the shorthorns that were used in developing the Maine breed.
If you read the different histories of the shorthorn breed you find there were times that whites and roans were the fashion over reds.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

When I was over there Ballyart-and Paddy Ocallihan had about six cows between them two or three of those being Herefords. The cows at Deerpark and Highfield and the Shannon cows (a few that were 20 years old) didnt really look dual. They were flat and square in the rear-but alot wider than the American cattle. If anything-the spots come from maine-not Ayrshire.As far as calling them mutts etc-they were a dam sight better than ANYTHING I SAW OVER HERE. The English cattle were not.-Very wasty-patchy fat.If you go back to books from the late 1800s-(got a couple yet) and see market days in Ireland-the cattle were huge-looked 6 feet tall.The Irish breeders didnt want to dwarf thier cattle with the "improved" scotch midgets.When I was there- Edward Quane, John Mcnally etc-were trying to get Byland Goldwalk(a dual-maine from enticer deal) semen because they had literally run out of room to linebreed anymore. I for one am happy they refused to breed thier cattle to the Ponies O0