THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND NEWER POSTS WITH DIVIDEND INFLUENCED CATTLE

[knabe]

i have these old prints of mancelles and one looks like it could be roany.

http://www.prints-4-all.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Mark, chill out and go grab a glass of wine. You are missing the forest for the trees here in regard to my statements.

First of all, when I mention Irish color I am not talking the prominance of acceptable but formerly uncommon patterns like red neck roan. What I am refering to is a splotchy spottedness and different hue. You either know what I am refering to or you dont and I dont know how to explain it other than grab a sale catalog from Aldens about the time they sold out and then go to Leveldale's website where they have pictures of cattle through the century and you will get what I am saying.

As far as liking the cattle in Ireland you saw more than the those in England, I am sure if I was with you I would have agreed. Does not change the fact that the lineage of the cattle as being of pure blood of the foundation Coates or even Bates is dubious at best. Chris Black has some really cool looking herefords, but that doesnt mean they arent mixed blood.

I am in no way a purist thinking that being able to trace a pedigree back to the original Duchess means a thing. I think there are Irish cattle that improved the national cowherd for sure. Not sure if Dividend was one of them though.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

AJ, as far as letting the duals in it seems to me the question should be how were they ever out? As I understand it there were several herds that essentially milked their beef cows because one cow could raise two calves and when dollars were hard to come by they chose a registration association. They were still shorthorns. As I understand it it was these "beefy" dairy cattle that were targeted to have their gene pool reintroduced when the herd book opened. Unfortunately in the chase for frame bulls with dairy characteristics were utilized just because they were tall and were envogue. Same as using anything Irish just because it was Irish. Same as in the 50s using anything imported from Scotland because it was from Scotland.

 

[GM]

Yuppie Cowboy, we do think alike.  However, it appears you were not a fan of Dividend.  I think he may have helped the breed in many ways; more so than Ayatollah, Clark, Columbus, etc.  I just wish it could be measured.  I know the irish cattle helped frame size, rib eye, testicles, feet, etc, but it seems as though we don't have tangible evidence of how much they helped overall.

We can point to bulls that shaped generations.  I'm wondering what you believe will be the bull, or breeding program, that will shape the next generation.  Here's what I see as the most influential bulls that I can remember... 

TPS Coronet Leader 21st -> Kinnaber Leader 9th -> Clark -> Kenmar Ransom 32Z -> Millbrook Ransom G9 -> Deerpark Improver -> Deerpark Leader 13th -> Ayatollah -> Deerpark Improver 2nd -> Deerpark Improver 57 ->  HS Rodeo Drive 062WR -> CF Trump -> AHL DOUBLE STUFF 306 -> WHR Sonny -> CF Solution -> Jakes Proud Jazz -> ??? what's next...SULL Red Reward...Captain Obvious...Sneed Breeding...Dover Breeding...Canadian Breeding...idk ???

I know a lot of bulls from the pre Irish era have been re-introduced.  I think it's interesting, and nostalgic perhaps, but I'm wondering what specific business need they are accomplishing.  I don't think the adjective "easy fleshing" is a specific enough business need.  I would like to see a study done where calves out of these bulls, the irish bulls, rodeo drive bulls, trump bulls, etc were tested for bw, ww, adg, feedlot tested, choice and quality carcass graded, profit, etc.  If I had the money I'd sponsor such as test.  I think one of the universities did this with old angus semen recently.

What bulls/breeding will shape the next generation?  Who would have thought Proud Jazz would be used as much as he has?  What's the next Proud Jazz?

Thanks for the topics, and thanks for the input.  I appreciate everyone's comments.

GM

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Mark, chill out and go grab a glass of wine. You are missing the forest for the trees here in regard to my statements.

First of all, when I mention Irish color I am not talking the prominance of acceptable but formerly uncommon patterns like red neck roan. What I am refering to is a splotchy spottedness and different hue. You either know what I am refering to or you dont and I dont know how to explain it other than grab a sale catalog from Aldens about the time they sold out and then go to Leveldale's website where they have pictures of cattle through the century and you will get what I am saying.

As far as liking the cattle in Ireland you saw more than the those in England, I am sure if I was with you I would have agreed. Does not change the fact that the lineage of the cattle as being of pure blood of the foundation Coates or even Bates is dubious at best. Chris Black has some really cool looking herefords, but that doesnt mean they arent mixed blood.

I am in no way a purist thinking that being able to trace a pedigree back to the original Duchess means a thing. I think there are Irish cattle that improved the national cowherd for sure. Not sure if Dividend was one of them though.//////I have two books that I found in England-the first isShorthorn cattle-1918-by Alvin Sanders(US) with numerous photos going back to Aprox-1876-many of which were RWM cows-including a painting of the Duchess cow Circa 1842-owned by Mr Bates.She is roan-and the daughter with her is RWM-there are pics in the next book of others in this line-also rwm,along with the Collins cattle-ditto. The earliest Photograveures (that I have in front of me) are in 50 years among Shorthorns-by Robert Bruce (uk) and published in 1907-near the of his life.There are a number of blaze faced almost hereford looking cattle shown(purebreds in the 19th cenrury)-and some odd colored cattle that look alot like the Dutch cattle Ive seen in paintings from whence shorthorns originated,Im basically relating to cattle I saw in Ireland-and referances from well over 100 years ago-not Aldens dispersal.Thus-its not hard to differentiate between maine coloring-and the old blood.The closest consistent examples of the blotchy off tone colrs Ive seen alot of here were the 3w payoffs in various incarnations.

 

[GM]

Mark, chill out and go grab a glass of wine. You are missing the forest for the trees here in regard to my statements.

First of all, when I mention Irish color I am not talking the prominance of acceptable but formerly uncommon patterns like red neck roan. What I am refering to is a splotchy spottedness and different hue. You either know what I am refering to or you dont and I dont know how to explain it other than grab a sale catalog from Aldens about the time they sold out and then go to Leveldale's website where they have pictures of cattle through the century and you will get what I am saying.

As far as liking the cattle in Ireland you saw more than the those in England, I am sure if I was with you I would have agreed. Does not change the fact that the lineage of the cattle as being of pure blood of the foundation Coates or even Bates is dubious at best. Chris Black has some really cool looking herefords, but that doesnt mean they arent mixed blood.

I am in no way a purist thinking that being able to trace a pedigree back to the original Duchess means a thing. I think there are Irish cattle that improved the national cowherd for sure. Not sure if Dividend was one of them though.//////I have two books that I found in England-the first isShorthorn cattle-1918-by Alvin Sanders(US) with numerous photos going back to Aprox-1876-many of which were RWM cows-including a painting of the Duchess cow Circa 1842-owned by Mr Bates.She is roan-and the daughter with her is RWM-there are pics in the next book of others in this line-also rwm,along with the Collins cattle-ditto. The earliest Photograveures (that I have in front of me) are in 50 years among Shorthorns-by Robert Bruce (uk) and published in 1907-near the of his life.There are a number of blaze faced almost hereford looking cattle shown(purebreds in the 19th cenrury)-and some odd colored cattle that look alot like the Dutch cattle Ive seen in paintings from whence shorthorns originated,Im basically relating to cattle I saw in Ireland-and referances from well over 100 years ago-not Aldens dispersal.Thus-its not hard to differentiate between maine coloring-and the old blood.The closest consistent examples of the blotchy off tone colrs Ive seen alot of here were the 3w payoffs in various incarnations.

3W Payoff's sire and dam were both sired by Dividend...they were half siblings...lol...Payoff threw the loudest colors ever next to WO Dividend and Dividend himself

 

[mark tenenbaum]

The story as I have been told was that Harris Simons, executive secretary I believe, came back from Ireland around 1968 ish with stories of shorthorn cattle weaning in excess of 800 pounds. He was called a liar and essentially ran out of the breed. ////Divdend wasnt alive yet in 1968

 

[yuppiecowboy]

GM, let me start by saying compared to the Graham bulls you listed Dividend was a messiah. I have known of many a L13 cow that was tremendous. If bred correctly he did a great job of one generation overhauling of plain dumpy scotchy cows. My disdain is more towards the over promotion and over use as a one size fits all widget. I just happen to think there were some bulls that did it my way more than he did. Whatever Dividend did wrong, it can be fixed, bred around, or bred through. If I were a shorthorn breeder, the ancestral presence of any of the dually bulls you mentioned  would be a genetic defect scrutinized and culled more diligently than a TH/PHA carrier with dandruff and bad breath.

Influential is not necessarily a good thing. To go down your line up of "influential" bulls, I wont disagree with your picks, the most common theme I note about them, at least the most prominent ones, is that they were "changers". They did something extreme. You can almost fol ow that line up as a time line and see that the "hot" bull from one year pretty much was supposed to fix what the "hot " bull from ten years previous did. It is actually amusing to look at those names and see the breed evolution take place in front of you.

As far as the old schools being reintroduced, I have actually pondered this. I can think of four breeders I personally knew who didn't like the move toward soupbone cattle with legs. The old boys I am thinking of wanted more performance for sure, but also wanted a moderate framed efficient beast with carcass merit. Having principals is noble, but losing your butt knowing you re right is a fools errand. The guys I am thinking of threw in the towel and went with Saler cattle, angus cattle, or gave up altogether. The next great "uberbull" should be boring as a turtle race. Balanced quality in all aspects.  This will not happen simply because there is no money to be made in promotion of this.
The purebred breeder aspect of the breed seems to have historically been about commotion, promotion, and change. The money in that breed has always been about chasing the rabbit. Take a look at the powers that be and have been.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Mark, Payoff is pretty much the poster child for goofy irish paint jobs I am talking about. He is the shining example.

Second Dividend was not the first nor last calf born in Ireland.My point was simply that the existance of Shorthorn looking cattle in Ireland of notable size and performance had been noted previous to Mr Hook. Not taking anything away from Mr Hook nor his story nor his accomplishments.  I am rather curious how Hook determined Dividends merits in 1971 though.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Mark, chill out and go grab a glass of wine. You are missing the forest for the trees here in regard to my statements.

First of all, when I mention Irish color I am not talking the prominance of acceptable but formerly uncommon patterns like red neck roan. What I am refering to is a splotchy spottedness and different hue. You either know what I am refering to or you dont and I dont know how to explain it other than grab a sale catalog from Aldens about the time they sold out and then go to Leveldale's website where they have pictures of cattle through the century and you will get what I am saying.

As far as liking the cattle in Ireland you saw more than the those in England, I am sure if I was with you I would have agreed. Does not change the fact that the lineage of the cattle as being of pure blood of the foundation Coates or even Bates is dubious at best. Chris Black has some really cool looking herefords, but that doesnt mean they arent mixed blood.

I am in no way a purist thinking that being able to trace a pedigree back to the original Duchess means a thing. I think there are Irish cattle that improved the national cowherd for sure. Not sure if Dividend was one of them though.//////I have two books that I found in England-the first isShorthorn cattle-1918-by Alvin Sanders(US) with numerous photos going back to Aprox-1876-many of which were RWM cows-including a painting of the Duchess cow Circa 1842-owned by Mr Bates.She is roan-and the daughter with her is RWM-there are pics in the next book of others in this line-also rwm,along with the Collins cattle-ditto. The earliest Photograveures (that I have in front of me) are in 50 years among Shorthorns-by Robert Bruce (uk) and published in 1907-near the of his life.There are a number of blaze faced almost hereford looking cattle shown(purebreds in the 19th cenrury)-and some odd colored cattle that look alot like the Dutch cattle Ive seen in paintings from whence shorthorns originated,Im basically relating to cattle I saw in Ireland-and referances from well over 100 years ago-not Aldens dispersal.Thus-its not hard to differentiate between maine coloring-and the old blood.The closest consistent examples of the blotchy off tone colrs Ive seen alot of here were the 3w payoffs in various incarnations.

3W Payoff's sire and dam were both sired by Dividend...they were half siblings...lol...Payoff threw the loudest colors ever next to WO Dividend and Dividend himself
///-Thats as long as you believe everything in the pedigree and that Payoff was horned-yet a 100percent dehorner LOL

 

[mark tenenbaum]

Mark, Payoff is pretty much the poster child for goofy irish paint jobs I am talking about. He is the shining example.

Second Dividend was not the first nor last calf born in Ireland.My point was simply that the existance of Shorthorn looking cattle in Ireland of notable size and performance had been noted previous to Mr Hook. Not taking anything away from Mr Hook nor his story nor his accomplishments.  I am rather curious how Hook determined Dividends merits in 1971 though. ////Mighta been a year earlier-he was over there looking for other cattle and found him. I dont think any of those cattle were weaning close to 800 in any case-the cattle are for the most part later maturing and in Ireland-basically developed on grass and a little hay.The cattle imported or used here foolow the same pattern-they just keep going.Bullocks graze untill the age of 3 or 4-and really dont get any size untill the age of three or 4-.I still want to know about the Canadian cattle-that werent related to any Irish-or Enticer,(Australian Dual)or even Glenford Curt type breeding. Maybe JIT can list a few herds

 

[yuppiecowboy]

Mark, you are heck of a good guy, we like the same kind and I have enjoyed personally conversing with you. We are not necessarily in disagreement on anything here.

Since I wasnt there i really am in no position to defend the claim a guy, I presume deceased, made over forty years ago. I would say that since full irish bull calves weaning in excess of 800 pounds here is certainly not uncommon, logic would be on the side of the story having merit.

 

[mark tenenbaum]

I m not ruffled or anything else-Im also guilty of raising (in the day) some pretty big cattle. Mad Max-(Louisville 1993) was huge-He was the largest BW and otherwise full sib to RPS Grandslam-He was one of the heaviest JR Yearlings to that date-at Louisville-and he weaned at 735 lbs,at 6.5 months-and ended up an 8 plus frame. I had an unknown bull called fleetfoot-a Goldwalk son who wieghed approx-750 pounds at 7 months and may have been a tick ahead of his time, An 800 pound weaning wieght is just a pretty big animal,and to  come out of a cow without a winch (had them too) I pushed mine pretty hard-we knew Max was good early on-and wanted him ready as a calf at Louisville- (he was too small).

 

[peachy]

Mark- do you have a picture of Mad max. I remember the name but I cant picture him.

 

[Okotoks]

Mark, Payoff is pretty much the poster child for goofy irish paint jobs I am talking about. He is the shining example.

Second Dividend was not the first nor last calf born in Ireland.My point was simply that the existance of Shorthorn looking cattle in Ireland of notable size and performance had been noted previous to Mr Hook. Not taking anything away from Mr Hook nor his story nor his accomplishments.  I am rather curious how Hook determined Dividends merits in 1971 though. ////Mighta been a year earlier-he was over there looking for other cattle and found him. I dont think any of those cattle were weaning close to 800 in any case-the cattle are for the most part later maturing and in Ireland-basically developed on grass and a little hay.The cattle imported or used here foolow the same pattern-they just keep going.Bullocks graze untill the age of 3 or 4-and really dont get any size untill the age of three or 4-.I still want to know about the Canadian cattle-that werent related to any Irish-or Enticer,(Australian Dual)or even Glenford Curt type breeding. Maybe JIT can list a few herds

You would have a challenge finding many shorthorns in Canada that didn't have at least one cross of Irish in their background. When the Iirish were admitted to the Canadian book as purebreds(originally they were in the Graded Up book) there were only two votes against at our annual meeting. Even those two breeders used some Irish influence later.At the time they were represented as being pure but having no registrations(similar to the Dover situation). I do know at one time a lot of Booth bred cattle were sent to Ireland so maybe some of them would have some of that blood. You hear a lot of speculation but I have never heard anything concrete about what their make up is. I would have thought they were discovered about the same time as the Maine Anjou started being introduced to Britan and North America so I wouldn't expect it was Maine unless that was right close up in the pedigree.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

I need to clarify something apparently. I am not even remotely an authority on what all has or has not been used in anybody's herd let alone all the herds of Canada. My point is as a casual observer over the years I have noticed that Canadian cattle as a whole maintained a beefier type more con sitant with the cattle pre Irish and Dual infusion. I stand by that.

Just for kicks, I got on the Canadian website and pedigree researched some individuals that have struck me as "my kind".

What I found, for the most part, is that I did not see much if any infusion of "flavor of the month" cattle. The Irish I did find traced to two bulls. Guinness and Irish Mist. Coincidentally these were the two bulls I had in mind when thinking of Irish bulls that were superior to Dividend. In not a single instance did I see Dividend in any of the pedigrees I looked up.

However, I did throw up in my mouth a little when I saw Saskavalley Bonanza goes back to Ayatollah many generations back. I guess that is a testament to the prepotency of the Canadian cattle otherwise found in his pedigree.

I am sure they existed, but I have never known of a Harvey Fulton or Bob Gordon cow that I wouldn't love to have. My observation is that not only are these two herds prominent in the background of cattle I appreciate, the subsequent generations tended to follow the form and function of these ancestors to my liking.

Silly part of my little research project when I certainly have better things to be doing is that there are half a dozen people on this board that actually own the animals I looked up.

 

[DRB]

I need to clarify something apparently. I am not even remotely an authority on what all has or has not been used in anybody's herd let alone all the herds of Canada. My point is as a casual observer over the years I have noticed that Canadian cattle as a whole maintained a beefier type more con sitant with the cattle pre Irish and Dual infusion. I stand by that.

Just for kicks, I got on the Canadian website and pedigree researched some individuals that have struck me as "my kind".

What I found, for the most part, is that I did not see much if any infusion of "flavor of the month" cattle. The Irish I did find traced to two bulls. Guinness and Irish Mist. Coincidentally these were the two bulls I had in mind when thinking of Irish bulls that were superior to Dividend. In not a single instance did I see Dividend in any of the pedigrees I looked up.

However, I did throw up in my mouth a little when I saw Saskavalley Bonanza goes back to Ayatollah many generations back. I guess that is a testament to the prepotency of the Canadian cattle otherwise found in his pedigree.

I am sure they existed, but I have never known of a Harvey Fulton or Bob Gordon cow that I wouldn't love to have. My observation is that not only are these two herds prominent in the background of cattle I appreciate, the subsequent generations tended to follow the form and function of these ancestors to my liking.

Silly part of my little research project when I certainly have better things to be doing is that there are half a dozen people on this board that actually own the animals I looked up.

Out of curiousity what don't you like about Ayatollah?  (I'm not familiar with him)
Thanks

 

[knabe]

The paternal grandsire of this bull was an Appendix registered bull *AR2336 AYATOLLAH, whose sire 381178 VIKING VALLEY CHIEF, was a son of the full-blooded Illawarra shorthorn bull CEDAR VALLEY MARIO and the cow LUKE’S MASTER MANDE-EXP whose paternal grandsire was a Holstein bull and maternal grandsire was pure Illawarra.  Any an all of the descendents from CD *x3822026 would be impure.  From recent research CD *x3822026 has been the only non-native bull the Haumonts have used so far.  So if any of you who have purchased from the Haumont herd I would check your cows and see if they do have any CD *x3822026 in them.  If they do they are not pure.

not sure if this is the same ayatolla.  i think i saw him when i was younger and if it's the same bull, he was pretty tall and came around the tail end of the tall craze.

 

[garybob]

The paternal grandsire of this bull was an Appendix registered bull *AR2336 AYATOLLAH, whose sire 381178 VIKING VALLEY CHIEF, was a son of the full-blooded Illawarra shorthorn bull CEDAR VALLEY MARIO and the cow LUKE’S MASTER MANDE-EXP whose paternal grandsire was a Holstein bull and maternal grandsire was pure Illawarra.  Any an all of the descendents from CD *x3822026 would be impure.  From recent research CD *x3822026 has been the only non-native bull the Haumonts have used so far.  So if any of you who have purchased from the Haumont herd I would check your cows and see if they do have any CD *x3822026 in them.  If they do they are not pure.

not sure if this is the same ayatolla.  i think i saw him when i was younger and if it's the same bull, he was pretty tall and came around the tail end of the tall craze.

from Graham Land and Livestock? That'd be the one.

GB

 

[r.n.reed]

For the record the C.D.influence was totaly removed from the Haumont herd several years ago.