THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED DIVIDEND_AND NEWER POSTS WITH DIVIDEND INFLUENCED CATTLE

[Okotoks]

Two of the major differences in the US and Canadian Shorthorn herd books are the way Illawara and Maine Anjou are treated.
In Canada the Dual Purpose( Now Milking) did not separate from the beef until this year but had been operating separately for about 6 years. The Illawara herdbook was recognized and a couple of animals with Illawara were used in the beef herds including Ayatollah. He had a major influence through a few of his offspring. These animals are all in the closed herd book.
The Maine Anjou in Canada are not recognized so a lot of US animals with Maine blood come into our herdbook at a very low percentage.(Trump is a 3/4 blood)
Years ago we decided to use a couple of straws of Ayatollah because his son Cactus Flat Ringmaster was so good.He had good muscling but would be too large for today's market. Interesting but Ringmaster’s dam was a daughter of TPS Coronet Leader 21st. Of course this was long after the 21st was cool and long before he became cool again through another grandson Jake’s Proud Jazz! (not to mention a son Roanoke Flashback) The Ayatollah experience in Western Canada left some good results. He was crossed on straight beef pedigrees and the resulting offspring were fast growing well fleshed animals. Maybe these cattle were throwing back to his dam a little stronger than his offspring out of the milking pedigrees. The offspring we had that went on to breed well for us were out of two maternal sisters, one by  Weston Ablo and the other by HC Trendsetter 26K. ( I personally feel  it was the 26K bull that put the Ramsholt herd on the map, seems JIT’s influence was felt even before the Irish) These Ayatollah descendants had good udders, fleshing ability and above average muscling .We bought a cow from Bender's that was a double great grand daughter of Ayatollah that was a big easy fleshing cow with a really good udder. We sold one of her sons to Scotlland where he left some really good offspring. I have never seen easier births with more vigorous calves than Ayatollah's. Over the years through selection most  of his descendants now are 2 to 3 frame scores lower than back in the 80”s. If you say that to some people they will look at you like you just grew a third eye! Mike Dugdale maintained that the good experience we had in Canada was due to the dams. He said he should never have been used on the milkers in the US as a lot were just too hard doing. The difference in the two books means a person should do a little research to check the status in your own book.

 

[oakview]

To the best of my knowledge, the Shannon Irish cattle were the only ones that traced to the old English herd book.  We were allowed to put Milking Shorthorns directly into the ASA herd book in the 70's if they traced to the original herd book that was split (into 2 divisions, milking and beef types) I believe in 1948.  It cost $850 to get a Milking Shorthorn paper for a bull 'traced and released' from the AMSS and $250 for a female.  The Milking Shorthorn cattle that did not trace to the old herd book, those with Illawarra, Red and White Holstein, etc., came into the ASA herd book at the appropriate percentage as a part of the appendix registry.  Ayatollah was one of this group.  Grahams had him on display in Denver one year and he drew quite a crowd.  I liked Columbus and Sprio at the time, but had little use for Ayatollah.  He had some performance, I think they touted a yearling weight of over 1,400 pounds, but he was downright ugly.  He had little eye appeal, muscling, soundness, fleshing ability, etc., in my opinion.  I enjoy looking at the extended pedigrees of Shorthorns and probably spend more time than I should on the ASA's website.  You would be hard pressed to find many Canadian Shorthorns, at least the ones we hear of in the states, that do not trace to Irish, Milking Shorthorns (dual purpose), and Mandalong Super Flag.  The fact that many of us like what they've done as far as maintaing fleshing ability along with other desirable traits goes to prove that results depend directly on how the ingredients are mixed.  Many of the Milking Shorthorns used in the states that I am familiar with served as improvers, many did not, and cannot be thrown conveniently into a group of either good or bad.  I used a bull, Justamere Todd, that was the first dual purpose bull to win grand champion honors at the Iowa State Fair.  That was in 1975.  He also won the Minnesota State Fair, judged by Harvey Fulton, beating the evenentual National Champion Hilltop Lancer 457 for the 2nd time.  At the later shows, Kansas City, Louisville, Chicago, and Denver, I couldn't get around Great White Hope in class.  Lancer 457 won the spring yearling class and was named champion at those shows except one when Hope was named champion. 

 

[nativeman]

Move the Irish up to 2010.  Here is a yearling full irish bull.  Calved 80+/- lbs. out of first calf heifer. Turns a year in November.

 

[GM]

What's the breeding on your irish bull?

 

[aj]

Didn't 457 have dual blood or at least look like he did. I remember him being big framed.

 

[yuppiecowboy]

You know Okotoks, I have heard the claim of a cow being so good you could breed her to a dead goat and she'd bring in a good one. Seems to me alot of you folks up there took that to heart and proved it.

I am a huge proponent of cow families. Every master breeder I have admired held the opinion that the only real important lineage of a pedigree is the bottom line of maternal descendants. This is why I hate heifers being named something other than the name representing their maternal line.

For the person unfamiliar with Ayatollah, he can pretty much be identified as THE height of the pendulum swing. 940 ish pound weaning weight, tremendous frame, just a monster. More than that the best way I could describe his body is like an old cowboy. skinny legs and no butt at all with a huge beer gut where you wonder how they keep their pants on. We all know "That guy", well that's how Ayatollah was built. He was after all a milking shorthorn. He was the absolute outlier of the era and was used a ton since his daughters were winning everything for a few years and his genetics polluted alot of water.

I can think of no greater testament to the breeding prepotency of your cow families than the fact that not only did you suffer no damage from using Ayatollah, you benefited from his use. You should print bumper stickers like they have at amusement parks. Instead of "I survived the killer roller coaster at 6 flags" it should say "we used ayatollah and our cows are still good"

 

[oakview]

Hilltop Lancer 457 was 100% Milking Shorthorn (dual purpose type)  Carvin Guy bought a number of Milking Shorthorn females and 457's sire, Nodak King's Tradition.  In 1975 they showed a group of 4 head that originated from the Milking Shorthorn herd that were pretty tough to beat, including Hilltop Lancer 472 that Heckendorfs in Colorado had some success with as a 2 year old.  Nodak King's Tradition (Lancer) was one of the more popular show sires of the time.  I think the herd of origin was a Schlekewy Milking Shorthorn herd in the Dakotas.  Not sure of the spelling.

 

[r.n.reed]

Back in the 70's I sent my weaning weights to the Milking Society as the ASA didn't have much of a program then.Wound up with the heaviest official weaning weight one year and still have the trophy to prove it,had a 1200lb Meadowbrook cow wean a 712lb calf,nearly 60% of her body weight.Mark Graham was one of the first to congratulate me and as we talked he told me about  the 965 lb bull calf he had just weaned and named him Ayatollah since they figured he would be pretty controversial.I have often wondered where the breed would be today if the breed had pursued efficiency rather than maximum performance at any cost.The other thing I remember about that meeting was how upset everyone was because there was no milk and the creamer was non dairy at the banquet.

 

[knabe]

The other thing I remember about that meeting was how upset everyone was because there was no milk and the creamer was non dairy at the banquet.

wait till they find out about that in some of today's sires.

 

[r.n.reed]

The rewards of single trait selection Knabe

 

[Okotoks]

You know Okotoks, I have heard the claim of a cow being so good you could breed her to a dead goat and she'd bring in a good one. Seems to me alot of you folks up there took that to heart and proved it.

I am a huge proponent of cow families. Every master breeder I have admired held the opinion that the only real important lineage of a pedigree is the bottom line of maternal descendants. This is why I hate heifers being named something other than the name representing their maternal line.

For the person unfamiliar with Ayatollah, he can pretty much be identified as THE height of the pendulum swing. 940 ish pound weaning weight, tremendous frame, just a monster. More than that the best way I could describe his body is like an old cowboy. skinny legs and no butt at all with a huge beer gut where you wonder how they keep their pants on. We all know "That guy", well that's how Ayatollah was built. He was after all a milking shorthorn. He was the absolute outlier of the era and was used a ton since his daughters were winning everything for a few years and his genetics polluted alot of water.

I can think of no greater testament to the breeding prepotency of your cow families than the fact that not only did you suffer no damage from using Ayatollah, you benefited from his use. You should print bumper stickers like they have at amusement parks. Instead of "I survived the killer roller coaster at 6 flags" it should say "we used ayatollah and our cows are still good"

I agree on cow families. The good ones always produce. We include the family name when we name heifers. We name similar to some of the old Scottish herds that gave the family name then another name for the year letter.(except in some years like x,y and z we may just use the family name if we can't come up with enough year letter names!) I often wonder what those old girls we bred Ayatollah to would have had bred to our WPS Irish Guiness 561 bull. Jill and I bought him as a calf from Gary and Janell Wilson. He was a roan son of Guiness(Deerpark Improver 2) and a Kenbar Commando's Diana cow(straight beef and polled breeding) This bull was deep thick and moderate sized. I remember showing him at Calgary where we stood foot and right above us was an Eionmor bull. Neither was anyhwere near tall enough for the times but they were good bulls. 561 left us some pretty useful daughters.Stan Pethybridge bought two of his sons Diamond Secretariat 1S and Diamond Supreme 3S and these two bulls still show up in some of the Teesalta,Gafa, Gar-Lind pedigrees 27 years later.

 

[garybob]

The rewards of single trait selection Knabe

people need to see how "Beefy" cattle can be, with a shot a of the old Dual Purpose breeding. can you post a pic of your ol Pioneer bull? These folks need to see the difference between Dual and Dairy.

GB

 

[r.n.reed]

It would be hard to call this guy dairy GB

 

[Okotoks]

It would be hard to call this guy dairy GB

That's a nice looking bull. He has very balanced EPD's. Way back he has a cross of Dividend. (and even goes way way back to one of those cows that crossed well with Ayatollah)
EPD's B 2.2  WW 26  YW 33 Milk 6
Is that the same Meadowbrook herd at the foundation as Meadowbrook Prince 16th came from. Would anyone have semen off those old Meadowbrook bulls?

 

[r.n.reed]

Thanks for the compliment Okotoks.The bull is linebred to my Polly cow family which came from the Meadowbrook herd the same herd that produced Prince 16th.I purchased the last cows from Clarence Forgey when he could no longer take care of them.He passed away within a month after I took the last cow, Meadowbrook Polly 8th.These individuals were extremely inbred to Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th and Polly 8th.I think I have registered close to 140 Pollys now.I spent many hours with Clarence that had a strong influence on how I built my herd.I still have a good supply of Chieftain 9th semen that I hope to reintroduce to the herd at some point.I am sure you noticed a couple doses of Diamond in Pioneer's  pedigree.I am glad they are there.

 

[GM]

Who is the bull you listed?  I'd like to look up his pedigree.

 

[aj]

They always told me the little elf irish guy at the Denver Bronco games......gave hook the heads up on dividend. Magically delicious! ;D

 

[r.n.reed]

GM,the bull pictured above is Wolf Ridge Pioneer P108S,X4111136

 

[Okotoks]

Thanks for the compliment Okotoks.The bull is linebred to my Polly cow family which came from the Meadowbrook herd the same herd that produced Prince 16th.I purchased the last cows from Clarence Forgey when he could no longer take care of them.He passed away within a month after I took the last cow, Meadowbrook Polly 8th.These individuals were extremely inbred to Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th and Polly 8th.I think I have registered close to 140 Pollys now.I spent many hours with Clarence that had a strong influence on how I built my herd.I still have a good supply of Chieftain 9th semen that I hope to reintroduce to the herd at some point.I am sure you noticed a couple doses of Diamond in Pioneer's  pedigree.I am glad they are there.

Were the original Meadowbrook cows you purchased close up to either Meadowbrook Prince 16th or Meadowbrook Chieftain 9th. Both those bulls seem to have low BW EPD's but don't give in performance like some of the bulls from their era. It's interesting how the milking association was tracking efficiency as well as performance. It's sort of like Thomas Bates who used to keep track of butter production but alos performance and carcass traits and yet his cows were of milking type. He was doing this in the mid 1800's and again most of the people that used his genetics didn't keep track of any of it.

 

[r.n.reed]

Okotoks it is ironic that the Milking society especially the state of Indiana were doing steer feedouts and collecting carcass data in the 50's and 60's while the beef Shorthorn assoc.has only made an attempt in the last decade.I have been told that the fact that a dual steer won champion carcass at Denver in 72 was what swayed the beef assoc.to open up the herd book.The Meadowbrook herd had Champion carcass at the Indiana state fair 3 years in a row sometime in the 50's,meaningless now but it shows the balance of their program.
Meadowbrook Prince 16th had very little actual Meadowbrook breeding in him but developed from a similar foundation.Chieftain 9th had a cross section of some of the best individuals bred at Meadowbrook.As I said before the cows I purchased all had some chieftain influence except Polly 8th and her daughter by Great White Hope.Some of these were inbred to the point where there was some regression evident.The first pure outcross I used on these cattle that stayed in the herd was Eionmor Port O Call who had 3 crosses of Gafa Mohican in his pedigree.