The Relationship Between Cow Size & Production

[hamburgman]

I can see Mill Iron's point, it is the same concept as to why cells can only get so big, makes sense for cows in cold environments also.  I notice that from South Dakota on north cows tend to get bigger with many Canadian cows being monsters compared to many midwestern cows. 

I agree with finding the right cow for the right environment.  Had a professor discuss his friend's ranch in New Mexico one day in class.  He said  the guy never kept a heifer that weaned heavier than 450lbs because those heifers tended to milk to much and not breed back in that environment.

Seems to me that many people have opted for a larger cow than is needed in most environments because they are chasing weaning weights.

 

[Freddy]

The smaller type cow will last 4-5 years longer than your big cow in our environment ,,especially 40 years ago when we still had true Angus cattle ,now the red's have a more realistic approach to a profitable cow .....  Xbar -you need to come up north about this time of year ,we have 20 below conditions some of the time up here and also have 110 in the summer and compare before throwing all environment's as the same ....

 

[GoWyo]

To add to hamburgman's comment, when selecting replacements, if you are happy with the productivity of your herd, you would want your replacements to come from the middle and sell the outliers on both sides -- the puds and the big ones.  If you want to move your herd one direction or the other, then select deeper into the outliers and sell more of the ones on the opposite side of the middle.

On the feral animal phenotype that develops over time by a feral population, if you run your cattle like wildlife, you should expect your cattle to resemble wildlife over time.  They should have great survivability in the environment, but their productivity might suffer until you re-domesticate them through management and selection pressure for productivity.

 

[RyanChandler]

The smaller type cow will last 4-5 years longer than your big cow in our environment ,,especially 40 years ago when we still had true Angus cattle ,now the red's have a more realistic approach to a profitable cow .....  Xbar -you need to come up north about this time of year ,we have 20 below conditions some of the time up here and also have 110 in the summer and compare before throwing all environment's as the same ....

Where did I suggest that all environments were the same?  And I haven't really talked about big cows. I said frame 4.5-5 1400lbs.

 

[aj]

What we need is a line of Longhorn th carriers. Then we could say that man has screwed up every breed out there.

 

[DevonMan]

What we need is a line of Longhorn th carriers. Then we could say that man has screwed up every breed out there.

I forget who said it, maybe Jan Bonsma or one of those guys, but here it is - " The beef industry in the USA has been so corrupted that the is no going back with out outside genetics"

 

[librarian]

I have been exposed to quite a lot of strong opinions about the profitability of smaller cows for grass fed beef.  I have also been exposed to some pretty no nonsense commercial cow calf production for yield and grade in small feed lots.  The commercial people are regretting their binge on 1800 lb cows to make 900 lb weaned calves.  They are going to smaller bulls and have culled most of the big cows. The small frame people get a decent weaning weight but the finish weights are low so they are looking for "calving ease" muscular terminal crosses.  The pelvic sizes on the smaller cows are causing a lot of culling on that end.
My own experience is pointing toward 1300-1400 lb cows with lots of rumen capacity bred to 1800-2000 lb bulls with lots of rumen capacity. The smaller cows do not winter as well, as Mill Iron suggests and the savings in feed is not worth the loss of a cow and calf due to small frame pelvic limitations.  I am not sure there is a feed savings, as the small cows seem hungry all winter while the moderate cows seem fat and happy. Mammals are larger in northern latitudes, but the megafauna did not survive.
I have also heard that an inch of hair saves 25% on feed. I believe this.
I have also seen that, in this environment, one shot of Scotch Shorthorn in either parent improves hardiness, rumen capacity, and moderates size.
The cross bred heifers are out performing their straight bred mothers of any breed.
These pictures are of cross bred heifers that seem to be working well, expected to weigh 1250-1300 as adults, with plenty of capacity. Due to calve in March.

 

[librarian]

moderate size shorthorn with ample rumen capacity might make a profitable cold climate cow

 

[DevonMan]

Those are really nice animals! I like the Devon bull, it looks like he has lots of gut. Who is he you of? #688?#93? How many lbs is the shorthorn bull? What do you consider moderate size?

 

[librarian]

The pheno-type of the cow we can economically sustain is likely quite different compared to producers residing in more extreme parts of the continent?
I have seen many different descriptions of the "ideal cow" over the years.

I disagree w/ the assumption that certain phenotypes are better suited for certain environments.  In my opinion, there IS a universal ideal phenotype that excels in all environments.  Type, as in phenotype, needs to be thought of in terms of the animals proportions and not necessarily size.  The ideal phenotype can be either scaled up or down to suit - most imperative is that the relationships are accurately maintained- any adjustment in scale must increase or decrease proportionally.

The sooner we develop terminology that distinguishes one phenotype from another, the more progress we can make in terms of discussion.  If I ask 100 people to "draw me a picture of a 200lb man,"  the drawings would likely represent many, many different phenotypes.  Even If I said, " a 5'10" 200lb man" - you'll still get various phenotypes as that still gives no consideration to body composition- and in terms of cattle, body composition, i.e., "phenotype," is the most relevant.

I want to start a related thread on Optimal Regional Phenotypes. Since I am so visual, it helps just to see pictures of what is working for other people in other places.  If there is an optimal phenotype, it should recur in peoples positing of what they consider to be their "best" cow.  This would be the one that one hardly ever notices because it is just doing it's job, breeding back on time and raising a good calf every year. This cow would not be an outlier, but from the middle of the herd. If management information (plane of nutrition) was included and altitude and approx latitude then we would have a good set of information.  Information like this will be important as environment and economy change over time and we can sort things out from real experience rather than being told what works by "experts".  The great thing about this forum is the range of experience reflected by the community.